Tell on a cheater or let it slide?

[dessskris]

I still wish we could give negs here.

what the ****?? now don't you realise that you're bringing the situation to other different situations that are not comparable with it?! it's time to ask back: what has murder got to do with cheating??

....and one of the reasons why we should steralise women in China who have their second child.

it's not wrong to have a second child

....and one of the reasons why we should execute drug trafficers in Taiwan.

true.

....and one of the reasons why we should cut of the hands of theives in ancient Japan.

true

....and one of the reasons why we should hang 'black' men who look at white women.

huh? no? how's that wrong in any way at all?!

you're trying to expand this discussion to unrelated things, which I don't think is relevant and is comparable to the problem stated in the first post/in the title of this thread. it's about honesty... justice... and integrity. what's the purpose of going to school and taking exams if you cheat? you're not gaining anything (and I'm talking about knowledge, which you're supposed to gain at school, and is the main purpose of an education!). if cheating is an okay thing and we have to live with it, why is cheating not allowed in exams by teachers and schools? why do they have a rule that forbids us from cheating??? exactly because it's not the right thing to do!! international exams are supposed to be "fair tests". just like science labs, all the conditions must be kept the same (i.e. if most of the students don't cheat, none of the students should cheat!) to make it a fair test. otherwise then it's unfair. if one cheats and get a good mark but you didn't and get the same mark, would it be fair? no! anyway it's the wrong thing to do. at least if you don't tell on them, you need to tell them not to cheat anymore otherwise it's just the same with you're letting them be in the "wrong way". and you know they're unlikely to change unless there is an external force (e.g. somebody tells them not to). it's the value that you have in you. honesty. where is it? why be a bystander if you know you could make a change?

I'm trying hard to make my point here but I'm never good at debating so I find it hard to defend my arguments; but I still believe we must tell on a cheater.

anyhow if you come from a background where all the people are not well educated enough that they think cheating is allowed then I understand your position.

[London 2012 !]

I still wish we could give negs here.

what the ****?? now don't you realise that you're bringing the situation to other different situations that are not comparable with it?! it's time to ask back: what has murder got to do with cheating??

....and one of the reasons why we should steralise women in China who have their second child.

it's not wrong to have a second child

....and one of the reasons why we should execute drug trafficers in Taiwan.

true.

....and one of the reasons why we should cut of the hands of theives in ancient Japan.

true

....and one of the reasons why we should hang 'black' men who look at white women.

huh? no? how's that wrong in any way at all?!

you're trying to expand this discussion to unrelated things, which I don't think is relevant and is comparable to the problem stated in the first post/in the title of this thread. it's about honesty... justice... and integrity. what's the purpose of going to school and taking exams if you cheat? you're not gaining anything (and I'm talking about knowledge, which you're supposed to gain at school, and is the main purpose of an education!). if cheating is an okay thing and we have to live with it, why is cheating not allowed in exams by teachers and schools? why do they have a rule that forbids us from cheating??? exactly because it's not the right thing to do!! international exams are supposed to be "fair tests". just like science labs, all the conditions must be kept the same (i.e. if most of the students don't cheat, none of the students should cheat!) to make it a fair test. otherwise then it's unfair. if one cheats and get a good mark but you didn't and get the same mark, would it be fair? no! anyway it's the wrong thing to do. at least if you don't tell on them, you need to tell them not to cheat anymore otherwise it's just the same with you're letting them be in the "wrong way". and you know they're unlikely to change unless there is an external force (e.g. somebody tells them not to). it's the value that you have in you. honesty. where is it? why be a bystander if you know you could make a change?

I'm trying hard to make my point here but I'm never good at debating so I find it hard to defend my arguments; but I still believe we must tell on a cheater.

anyhow if you come from a background where all the people are not well educated enough that they think cheating is allowed then I understand your position.

I think you fail to understand Keel's point. In the context of not doing 'what you're supposed to do' in a given society, those are the punishments.

You brought murder into it....

And am I right in thinking that you agree with executing drug traffickers and cutting the hands of thieves??

I agree with you on the point that cheating is wrong but I don't particularly think the issue is about being 'well educated enough' to realise that cheating is wrong.

Edited August 2, 2011 by London 2012 !

[dessskris]

I think you fail to understand Keel's point

yep, maybe. I only skimmed through his posts (and all the posts made here)

huh? I don't get about the Chinese women having two children and black people looking at white people. are these forbidden? I never knew that despite I'm not into news at all.

but the background is a factor you know. if your parents were from the lower society background where they did all the illegal things and all then I see why you would agree with cheating.

[London 2012 !]

I think you fail to understand Keel's point

yep, maybe. I only skimmed through his posts (and all the posts made here)

huh? I don't get about the Chinese women having two children and black people looking at white people. are these forbidden? I never knew that despite I'm not into news at all.

but the background is a factor you know. if your parents were from the lower society background where they did all the illegal things and all then I see why you would agree with cheating.

You haven't heard of China's one child policy??? The 'black' example doesn't refer to now....

[dessskris]

You haven't heard of China's one child policy??? The 'black' example doesn't refer to now....

I thought I just mentioned I'm not into news at all... I don't read newspapers nor do I watch news so I hope that's understandable. ok then they should be punished. there is a policy, you disobey it, and you refuse to be punished?? that is stupid. if you don't like the rule you could simply migrate to another country where you could have as many children as possible.

what about the other one? what was the deal in the past?

see now noone (at least you aren't!) is refuting my point about honesty, about moral values and about fairness. and you tried so hard to refute my other less important points in the previous pages. very smart huh.

[Sandwich]

I think the point people are trying to make is that what is right and what is wrong within people's decision making is not always the same was what is right and wrong by law. The other point they're trying to make is that not every transgression of the law is serious enough to merit capital punishment.

People can't just migrate to another country in most cases (look at all the illegal immigrants and asylum seekers who suffer the pains of not being able to simply wander into the next country) - and in any case, why should you have to? If it were made the law that for a woman to own money or to receive an education is illegal, would you sit back and take it within your own country (or face the death sentence, apparently?!) - especially since other countries don't want you either?

To be honest, Desy, your views are more than just a little extreme. Breaking a law does not always mean breaking a moral code, and not every transgression (in fact, no transgressions in my opinion as I am dead set against capital punishment by law) deserves the death sentence.

[dessskris]

it's time to talk about subjectivity! again! ha-ha. if everything in the world was subjective there would never be a clear definition of what was right and what was wrong. hence there was never any point in debates and arguments because people had different views. yeah right.

I didn't say cheaters must die did I? the punishment I was referring to was just any kind of punishment and I wasn't specifically talking about capital punishment.

"why should they have to?"? if they don't like the rule, just leave the country. simple. otherwise LIVE WITH IT. like what some people said a few pages back. right? ha! HA! same like I can't live with cheating either! anyway if you're talking about women not allowed to have more than one children then it is a totally different case because the policy is not justifiable in the first place, but the policy that cheating is not allowed is very well justified and it's good to be practiced as cheating is an act of sin (or at least I think so!), where having a child is not a sin (except in some unacceptable cases). so again you can't compare it!

I have to admit that my views are quite extreme but that's the way I see it! I'm starting to wonder if this thread was about "telling on a cheater VS not telling on a cheater" or "Desy's view VS others' view".

P.S. yeah London 2012 just rep everybody's post that's attacking me. you think I don't know how to find out who gave the reps huh?!

[London 2012 !]

it's time to talk about subjectivity! again! ha-ha. if everything in the world was subjective there would never be a clear definition of what was right and what was wrong. hence there was never any point in debates and arguments because people had different views. yeah right.

I didn't say cheaters must die did I? the punishment I was referring to was just any kind of punishment and I wasn't specifically talking about capital punishment.

"why should they have to?"? if they don't like the rule, just leave the country. simple. otherwise LIVE WITH IT. like what some people said a few pages back. right? ha! HA! same like I can't live with cheating either! anyway if you're talking about women not allowed to have more than one children then it is a totally different case because the policy is not justifiable in the first place, but the policy that cheating is not allowed is very well justified and it's good to be practiced as cheating is an act of sin (or at least I think so!), where having a child is not a sin (except in some unacceptable cases). so again you can't compare it!

I have to admit that my views are quite extreme but that's the way I see it! I'm starting to wonder if this thread was about "telling on a cheater VS not telling on a cheater" or "Desy's view VS others' view".

P.S. yeah London 2012 just rep everybody's post that's attacking me. you think I don't know how to find out who gave the reps huh?!

Just relax. I'm not voting up posts because they attack you. I'm voting up posts which I agree with.

You don't need to start getting paranoid and hysterical. As I understand it, this thread is not about you. It's about promoting a healthy level of debate amongst us all concerning the issue of cheating.

Edited August 2, 2011 by London 2012 !

[Access Denied]

huh, i was never good at debating, hence I never really participated in any of the debates here but since you people are directing questions to me.....

You'd beat your sister to death?

Harsh.

she's doing what she's not supposed to do. she deserves a punishment. this statement applies in the case of cheating, hence one of the reasons why we should tell on a cheater.

im really glad im not your sister........family stick up for each other no matter what

i would rather confront the person, not tell on them and just say its bad, so they can be guilty without the real punishment, or talk to them to help them study so it doesnt happen again

[dessskris]

@London 2012 yeah right... I reckon we've talked about issues outside cheating that are not directly related to it. never expect me to do you any favour.

@Lexi28 yeah, your family does. I don't believe that I need to respect any of my family members if they don't deserve it. but anyway, it's off topic.

talking isn't as powerful as physical punishment you see. I'm not saying physical punishment would surely work but I bet many people don't actually listen/bother when they're being scolded, while people would be more afraid of physical punishment (or at least I am). it's just like when your teachers/parents give you a long long speech or ask you to write hundreds of lines but you still repeat the same mistakes anyway because what you get as a comeback you could still handle, unlike a physical punishment which is quite a harsh comeback that people are more likely to be afraid of it.

anywaaaaaaaaaaaaays so should we tell on a cheater or not??

[genepeer]

anywaaaaaaaaaaaaays so should we tell on a cheater or not??

Do what you think you should do, no one's forcing you to do anything.

Some people, me included, just don't find cheating as such a terrible crime. I have yet to see anyone's life terribly change because of a cheater, so I couldn't care less how they intend to do their exams. I'm not going to make someone's life a living hell because of hypothetical situations.

Edited August 2, 2011 by genepeer

[Daedalus]

@London 2012 yeah right... I reckon we've talked about issues outside cheating that are not directly related to it. never expect me to do you any favour.

@Lexi28 yeah, your family does. I don't believe that I need to respect any of my family members if they don't deserve it. but anyway, it's off topic.

talking isn't as powerful as physical punishment you see. I'm not saying physical punishment would surely work but I bet many people don't actually listen/bother when they're being scolded, while people would be more afraid of physical punishment (or at least I am). it's just like when your teachers/parents give you a long long speech or ask you to write hundreds of lines but you still repeat the same mistakes anyway because what you get as a comeback you could still handle, unlike a physical punishment which is quite a harsh comeback that people are more likely to be afraid of it.

anywaaaaaaaaaaaaays so should we tell on a cheater or not??

Apart from the radical irrationality of executing drug traffickers (even the eye for an eye argument doesn't work here .. people fundamentally still choose to buy drugs; what moral right do we have to execute people who traffic in substances that the gov't deems to be illegal (i.e. cannabis is much less bad for your health than both alcohol and cigarettes)), and your extremist views on beating your own sister (damn!) the truth is, punishment as a deterrent doesn't work.

Maybe the reason you don't kill anyone is that you'd be put in jail for life if you did. But honestly, if the law didn't exist, would you start killing strangers? Normal adults have inbuilt mechanisms for morality. Punishment is much more effective at taking criminals off the streets than at preventing offenses/repeat offenses. And it's pretty bad at that, too ...

Ever noticed how the safest countries in the world (Scandinavia) don't have capital punishments, etc.? Even the Norwegian terrorist's max sentence will be 21 years. Crime of that type is unheard of in these nations, and it's not because people are afraid of the punishments.

Edited August 2, 2011 by Daedalus

[Ice]

It is not worth telling because. THink of it like this. IB is a struggle.

At the end of the day its not some american system GPA thing that univeersities are looking at.

The minute anything is found out the person is finished.

As you take that exam, your life rides on it. if you can do something without getting caught, fine. No teacher wants a student to fail. But if someone calls you out, then you are finished. I mean if you cheat all the time during school and its ok. But on an exam its not. But if you can do it well enoguh that you wont get caught your in the clear.

I don't advise cheating, but in the end:

Your life rides on that exam, you do what you can to succeed.

[haley.the.great]

LOl, this discussion has strayed a bit ridiculously!

I believe that cheating is wrong. OK so yeah cheating is wrong..morally wrong..now that that's established, we can move on....right?? Lying, cheating, and being gay! all...wrong...

Just take care of yourself and don't worry about others' routes to "success". In the scheme of things, if that cheater "took your spot" in university, you should've been better. It's that simple...you should have been better because had you been better, he would have taken another student's spot. Pity the cheater who may not be as prepared as his scores demonstrate anyway...don't risk your reputation as a snitch for such a petty crime.

But wait -- it's morally wrong right?!?! JUST IGNORE IT? Ya. or that's what I would do...but of course everyone can decide for himself.

I must agree that an environment of competition is not nearly as beneficial as an environment of support. Scores are scores are numbers are worthless but when it comes to support, common sense, decency, and knowledge...success is much more enjoyable. Don't cheat, don't get caught, don't tell... oh how hypocritical

[CkyBlue]

In an ideal world, telling on this student would be the best thing to do. Action---> Reaction.

But in the bastardized world that I believe I live in, I would not do it, especially if this student were my friend.

Morally speaking, yes, people should get punished for what they do. But look, what would be the advantages of telling on this person? There is nothing that is gained by the person who informs authority of cheating. (EDIT: Well after reading these posts, I am now aware of the possibility of them scoring higher than you, which I will discuss later)

If I saw this happening, I would talk to that person personally, and strongly urge them never to do it again. It is not our job to enforce the rules, it is to simply live by them.

If you tell on a friend, you jeopardize your relationship. But I tell you, sometimes the circumstances just drive us to do crazy things. If this has been a lifelong friend, you would be seeing him put down and suffer consequences. In IB2, the cohort is almost, if not, a family. Bleeding through all the "stuff" that everyone has gone through, telling on my friend is that thing that seems crazy. The person that is cheating is most likely not even thinking of surpassing others, but the person cheats probably because they are desperate. Yes the chance still stands of this person replacing your one spot in the university of your choice, but how likely is that?

Oh, and I am not done.

I must stress the point again we are not living in an ideal world. What would happen to YOU if you told on this person later? In happy dreamland heaven, you would be brightly commended for your action. You stopped immoral inactivity after all, right?

This is the world we live in. Already being really, really close to most of the IB candidates, the person who tells on his friend becomes infamous, known as a "tattle". Don't stop there, this person would almost certainly become a social reject if he was found out. Even if your telling to the teacher is confidential, the fact that someone told on his friend in IB2 about cheating would guarantee a new figure in your cohort, an anonymous hate object.

What would happen then?

This person would be stuck in an ordeal. They must live with the guilt, -and this pressure is tremendous because everytime someone brings up the "hate object" that person would feel hated. That would certainly do something about your esteem. So that person either live with the guilt, or they don't, and relives themself by telling what they did.(everyone in IB2 basically)

I do not have to explain what would happen then. In our world, morals are trashed for bonds. You can either keep what you have by not doing something you don't have to, or throw it all away.

Edited August 16, 2011 by Pickles

[Sandwich]

f you tell on a friend, you jeopardize your relationship. Again, in moral terms, this is wrong. One might even ask why someone would have us have a friend that cheats! But I tell you, sometimes the circumstances just drive us to do crazy things. If this has been a lifelong friend, you would be seeing him put down and suffer consequences. In IB2, the cohort is almost, if not, a family. Bleeding through all the "stuff" that everyone has gone through, telling on my friend is that thing that seems crazy.

Would you want to have a friend who cheats? To be honest, if I saw somebody (even my very best friends) cheating through something which I absolutely slaved to get, I think that regardless of whether I told on them or not, I don't think I could be good friends with them again afterwards. They've broken an implicit trust, in my opinion. They're not a part of the cohort if they have chosen not to abide by the rules which are the whole reason why the rest of the cohort is putting so much effort in! It's part of the basis of why IB groups become so close, because it's a challenge everybody is trying to overcome and it's hard for everyone so the best work comes as a team. If you're trying to defeat the 'challenge' of the IB and you and your friends have struggled for 2 years only to have somebody sneak through the back door at the end, I think they have in fact undermined the whole cohort ethos and the point of what you're trying to do. I couldn't respect somebody who did that.

This person would be stuck in an ordeal. They must live with the guilt, -and this pressure is tremendous because everytime someone brings up the "hate object" that person would feel hated. That would certainly do something about your esteem. So that person either live with the guilt, or they don't, and relives themself by telling what they did.(everyone in IB2 basically)

I'd argue this is untrue. Firstly you're never going to be part of that cohort again so there's no real stigma attached. After your final IB exam you walk out the door and off down the street and never come back again except for possibly some kind of awards ceremony if your school does that kind of thing.

Secondly, and related to my first point, I honestly don't think you'd be the target of hate. The individual who has cheated has undermined themselves for all their peers, not just you. If somebody from my IB class has cheated, I wouldn't blame the person who called them out on it, I'd blame the person who cheated. It seems utterly childish to me -- blanking somebody for being a 'tattle'. Maybe if I was 7 or 8 years old. Even 13. By the age of 17/18, however? If the sense of fair play of your colleague didn't extend to not cheating in the exam, I don't see any person to blame in this scenario except for them blaming themselves.

[Synxervious]

Grade boundaries are determined by how well any given cohort scores on the final exam; I hope all of you understand the normal distribution. If you look at cheating within the context of a small classroom environment, then certainly, nobody is the better or worse for cheating. When we talk about the aggregate population of cheaters, and subsequently the aggregate volume of cheating in the IB exam, this would certainly push the boundary up a few points. You can call it small, you can call it negligible, but the fact is that IB grades are in fact a zero sum game. You of course can talk about the excellent students who score all 7's with near perfect marks, but there is a reason why boundaries are so low; We look at the percentile of marks.

For every cheater who managed to score a 7 or a 6, there was one non-cheater who worked their heart and soul away, but failed to make the grade because he was on the borderline.

You speak of personal emotions and relationships, and this may be true, for this 'bastardized world' we live in necessitates cooperation and emphasizes solidarity. However, I still believe that telling on people for cheating is right, if only for the 'common good', firstly because telling does not have to have personal consequences, and secondly that society needs to learn to pay for its excesses. Cheating is something that is very much in the spirit of 'living beyond one's means', something that I vehemently disagree with. Cheaters will cheat even further in life, and while this is not necessarily wrong to them, I am going to say simply that it is wrong to me, and that regardless of whether you are my best friend or not, you will not escape.

It is simple. If people cheat, I will ruin them. If we speak in terms of family, this does not apply, because I am biased. But anyone outside? Too bad for you; The Chinese say that 'blood is thicker than water'.

[CkyBlue]

You have very good morals Sandwich. I have the uttermost respect for that.

No, I would not want to have a friend that cheats. But considering the reality of any situation, no one in IB would want to willing to cheat if they had the capabilities to do well. They most likely have no intent to do ill. The person that cheats, specifically BECAUSE they are an candidate in IB2, only wants to do well. They have cheated, that is wrong. They do deserve punishment. It is not fair if they end up scoring higher than other candidates. And I do agree the most appropriate consequence is the suspension of their diploma, but as the person who decides whether to rat them out or not, I would not want to see my friend or anyone of whom I bled suffer the fate of jeopardizing their diploma. Again, it is not our job to carry out the law, just to live by it. I myself am impious, but I do have a strong sense of morality. Repenting for this and trying to make up for it in the future is no substitution for the ideal consequence, but I (IMO) think it would be too harsh for someone's friend to directly be the cause to having their's friends diploma been taken away. Maybe I'm a big softie.

I cannot argue much further about whether or not the cheater belongs to the cohort family, because as far as this goes, we are generalizing a lot...

As for the second paragraph, I respectfully disagree. IB2 kids are somewhat a family anyway, aren't they? That second paragraph of yours sounds like I'm graduating IB without any support, any kind of peers or good memories in the past. I retain my argument of one being a "target of hate", because although you have the right kind of mindset, there are people of all sorts, shapes and sizes. I am glad there are people like you, but really, compared to everyone, your kind is most likely a minority. Therefore, I believe there would be more people looking down on you than supporting. It's that kinda of mob mentality that gets going on people that rat others out. Friendships and bonds compared to ratting people out (without the negative connotation even) are polar opposites. As people see this, they will see you going over the line.

[TurtleR]

On the topic of cheating, I think for me personally it's a bit hard to understand. When I wrote my Math and French exams earlier this year, it was REALLY strict. We weren't allowed any electronics other than our calculators (which were repogrammed before the exams) and everything was carefully watched. If anyone was cheating, I would have no idea how they managed it. Honestly, if you are willing to work hard enough to cheat up to the point where you start devising ingenious methods to cheat on a strictly supervised exam, then congratulations, but you aren't going to get very far, even IF you get into the university of your choice.

I haven't witnessed too many cheaters in my time, and the ones I have witnessed cheating either didn't do too well or got caught (especially in economics - our teacher was sharp).

And I agree with pickles, cheaters in IB probably don't think about surpassing others, it is usually due to desperation.

And also, I personally feel that most people are forgetting one major thing: the teachers and supervisors. The reason I wouldn't tell on a cheater is because I am trusting teachers to do their job. If I can notice someone cheating from 3 desks away WHILE I'm focused on my own test, I don't see why a teacher shouldn't be able to catch it. It is their responsibility, and that is what convinces me to keep to myself. After all, why should I do someone else's job? I'm in IB, and I'm going to focus on my exam, I don't have the time or interest to change someone's academic life forever by exposing them as a cheater. As I said before, if they're cheating during an IB exam, they must be pretty good...or desperate.

Like I said, we should be worrying about the teachers, not the students. "There is no such thing as bad student, only bad teacher" -Mr. Miyagi

[Emmi]

I wouldn't tell. As bad as that seems, I know that the person who cheats is going to suffer later in time, sort of like karma. Cheating at my school is ridiculous. It's everywhere. And the students don't even have to hide their cheating in some classes, they just take out their phones during a test, and the teacher doesn't seem to notice. But at my school the cheaters usually aren't the ones with the good grades; it's usually the opposite. This one girl who sat next to me cheated on almost every math quiz and test (she made notes on little pieces of paper and hid them in her pocket) and maintained a B average in class, but when it came to the exam in May she got like a 3 or 4. But what I'm saying is, I don't worry about what they're doing, because they're only hurting themselves in the future. What are they going to do when they go to university and have to take math classes? Write notes out on pieces of paper, only to get caught and get kicked out? Do they realize how hard it is to get readmitted after cheating is on your record? I just focus on what I'm doing. I study so I don't have to cheat, since I hold myself to a higher standard than that. I wouldn't be able to deal with guilt afterwards anyways. And at the end of the day, I know that the grade that I got on an exam or essay is genuine and earned. And that's enough for me.