I am not a Christian, and many people think worse of me. Should I think worse of myself?

[deissi]

Deissi, it seems that you only have a vague idea of Christianity. First of all, Lutheran, anglican, orthodox, presbyterian, baptist etc. are not different religions. They are just different denominations. In particular, all the accepted denominations of the protestant church believe in one book, the Bible, and agree in all the fundamental beliefs of Christianity such as the inerrancy of the Bible, Sola Scriptura, the virgin birth of Christ, the doctrine of substitutionary atonement, the bodily resurrection of Jesus, and the imminent personal return of Jesus Christ. However, as we humans are fallible creatures, we do have different interpretations on minor aspects of the Bible and thats why there are different denominations. As for the separation of protestant church from the catholic church, this happened because many of us indeed perceived that the Catholic church was abusing the Bible and using it as a form of enterprise. Christianity is not people trying to act as if they are better than others, but about people recognizing that they are sinners and having faith in that Jesus Christ died for us to save us.

Well, to be honest, I'd say I actually do have a broad view of Christianity, thanks to growing up in a Christian country (secular, but still Christian), and having been educated about different religions in school. Secondly, I'd like to point out that the Orthodox Church by no means is protestant: in 1054 (long before protestants), the one Christian church separated into two in Constantinople: the Catholic and the Orthodox church. Now you might say they're still close to each other, but do take into account that they excommunicated each other, and this excommunication was lifted only in 1965. As you mentioned, the protestants were born from the Catholic church, for example the Lutheran Church was formed when Martin Luther wanted to fight the corruption of the Catholic Church. However, I'd say that us protestants (I'm still a member of a Church, though not active at all) have major differences to Catholics in our beliefs; firstly, we have fewer sacraments (a key difference), and the church is very liberal by allowing female priests and not condemning abortion - heck, we're even talking about allowing same-sex marriages in Churches here! Now what I can agree with you in is the fact that the different protestant sects are very close to each other - I'd say the main difference in addition to the doctrines you mentioned is how liberal the church is, some are very liberal, others aren't.

[Guest dragonb111]

Well, to be honest, I'd say I actually do have a broad view of Christianity, thanks to growing up in a Christian country (secular, but still Christian), and having been educated about different religions in school. Secondly, I'd like to point out that the Orthodox Church by no means is protestant: in 1054 (long before protestants), the one Christian church separated into two in Constantinople: the Catholic and the Orthodox church. Now you might say they're still close to each other, but do take into account that they excommunicated each other, and this excommunication was lifted only in 1965. As you mentioned, the protestants were born from the Catholic church, for example the Lutheran Church was formed when Martin Luther wanted to fight the corruption of the Catholic Church. However, I'd say that us protestants (I'm still a member of a Church, though not active at all) have major differences to Catholics in our beliefs; firstly, we have fewer sacraments (a key difference), and the church is very liberal by allowing female priests and not condemning abortion - heck, we're even talking about allowing same-sex marriages in Churches here! Now what I can agree with you in is the fact that the different protestant sects are very close to each other - I'd say the main difference in addition to the doctrines you mentioned is how liberal the church is, some are very liberal, others aren't.

All you say is practially true (I can't say entirely since I didn't read the whole thing). But doesn't all christianity branch off of the Bible?

[deissi]

All you say is practially true (I can't say entirely since I didn't read the whole thing). But doesn't all christianity branch off of the Bible?

Yes, but my question is why have separate sects if everyone believes and worships the same God, and everyone is doing it the right way?

[Guest dragonb111]

Yes, but my question is why have separate sects if everyone believes and worships the same God, and everyone is doing it the right way?

Whoever said that every single one worships the same God and considers Him the holy one?

[laneolaneo1]

Don't you think that God would be beyond such petty things as religious denomination?

[Sold out Christian]

Yes, but my question is why have separate sects if everyone believes and worships the same God, and everyone is doing it the right way?

we do NOT all worship the same God. How can u even say that. You know that's not true. Muslims worship alah and buddists worship buddah. Those false "gods" are not the same. Ask anyone who worships alah if they believe another "god" is the true God. They will say no, because they believe alah is the true god. Everybody is not doing it the right way. Is human sacrifice done by every religion to glorify their "gods?" No. Only certian religions did that. If we were all to worship the right way, we'd all have to do it the same way. There are different religions. They are not all the same. Christians (like me) believe in one God, the TRUE GOD. We do not worship baal, or alah. or buddah. They are false. How can you say, then, that we all worship the same god.

[Sold out Christian]

Don't catholics believe that Mary is holy instead?

I don't know, I'm asking...

The catholics believe that Mary is holy. They also believe in praying to Mary. The thought is that Jesus could not refuse a request from his sweet momma. That sounds so nice, but in reality it is false teaching. In the book of hebrews the Bible says "there is one mediator between man and God the man Christ Jesus." That false teaching tries to make Jesus just a man subject to the whims of his very human mom. In reality, Jesus though born of a virgin and conceived by the Holy Spirit, was both God and man. John1:1 In the beginning was the word and the word was with God, and the word was God. The catholics also believe that Mary never had sexual relations with her husband. This would make her a terrible wife, and besides the Bible mentions James the brother of Jesus, as well as other siblings. The Bible commands wifes to have sex with their husbands.To pray to Mary is wrong, as well as useless. Mary the real Mary was a good and moral woman. Blessed among woman with the favor of The Lord. But, she is not to be prayed to.

[Mr. Shiver]

we do NOT all worship the same God. How can u even say that. You know that's not true. Muslims worship alah and buddists worship buddah. Those false "gods" are not the same. Ask anyone who worships alah if they believe another "god" is the true God. They will say no, because they believe alah is the true god. Everybody is not doing it the right way. Is human sacrifice done by every religion to glorify their "gods?" No. Only certian religions did that. If we were all to worship the right way, we'd all have to do it the same way. There are different religions. They are not all the same. Christians (like me) believe in one God, the TRUE GOD. We do not worship baal, or alah. or buddah. They are false. How can you say, then, that we all worship the same god.

People CAN worship the same God, in different ways which correspond with their language and cultural upbringing. To deny that is pure ignorance of the world around you.

Edited August 7, 2008 by Mr. Shiver

[laneolaneo1]

^ It seems that Muslims, Christians and Jews believe in the same god; what they argue about is who his prophet is.

As I have said, any god out there is is surely beyond the petty boundaries of religious denomination. Not that that will stop people like Sold Out Christian, who will insist that his god, and only his god, is 'true'. And Buddhists generally don't worship Buddha. There is no 'Creator God' in Buddhism.

A question for S.O.C.- What does a perfect God need with being worshipped?

I think that organized religion is frightening atheists and theists alike from discussing and exploring the concept of God, which is a shame. It reduces such debates to slagging-off matches between extremes, which is pointless.

Edited August 7, 2008 by laneolaneo1

[Mr. Shiver]

^ It seems that Muslims, Christians and Jews believe in the same god; what they argue about is who his prophet is.

Pretty much, yeah. Except Jews and Muslims don't believe in the trinity concept. Any differences in name are just due to differences in language.

As I have said, any god out there is is surely beyond the petty boundaries of religious denomination.

I absolutely agree with you on that.

Not that that will stop people like Sold Out Christian, who will insist that his god, and only his god, is 'true'.

It's human nature to only see things from one's own point of view (although that doesn't make it any less foolish). In such a competitive world, empathy seems to be considered a waste of time.

I think that organized religion is frightening atheists and theists alike from discussing and exploring the concept of God, which is a shame. It reduces such debates to slagging-off matches between extremes, which is pointless.

People are afraid to discover that what they thought was true might not be after all. That's where faith comes in. And it's a shame that we forget that having faith in something doesn't make it true.

Edited August 7, 2008 by Mr. Shiver

[Mr. Shiver]

And it's a shame that we forget that having faith in something doesn't make it true.

I'm feeling very pragmatic right now and so I'm gonna go right ahead and contradict myself.

Maybe it isn't a shame. Maybe it's perfectly acceptable. Actually, maybe it's even necessary for survival.

But after living 17 years on this earth, I've decided I would be ashamed if I did that.

[Sold out Christian]

I disagree with your logic. I'm a christian, but one thing that I learned from my 3 years of going to a christian school is that you cannot prove that doesn't exist. You can't prove God does exist either. That's why they call it faith. There are no facts or logic. You have your own free will to choose.

About "Who created God"...God was, God is, and God will always be. There was no beginning for Him and there will be no end. Actually, He is Alpha and Omega, beginning and end.

But still, you have a point. No one should pressure anyone to forcibly choose to be a christian or whatever. That's our own choice.

I wouldn't say that so confidently...unless you want to be plagued, swept in darkness, burned by the sun, be sent to hell, be separated from God for eternity (which is a long time), and be bitten by demonic locusts...It's your choice, but I would give this some thought if I were you...He will never leave you hanging, so don't leave Him hanging

Lucky is exactly the opposite dude...I was born into this world with sin, I accepted Jesus as my savior and Christ, that He rose, that He conquered death, that I can spend eternity with this being that controlls every part of my life...As for you...have fun with all the plagues that God plans on pouring out on the earth on anyone who has not accepted Him...I respect that you are a muslim, but please rethink this...You know why Christianity is different? Our God rose from the dead. No other god or gods have done that. That's what separates us...

I'd like to see you say that in front of the Almighty God. When the rapture happens, the next 7 years are gonna be worse then Hell for you and everyone here on this forum who doesn't believe in Christ.

Please turn back...God is still there, He is still knocking, waiting for you...He will never leave, please rethink this. There may not be much time left. Please think again...He will never forsake you...This is the biggest thing that could ever happen in your life...

I dare you to read the Bible. The book of Revaltion. Chapters 6,7,8,9. That tells you about all the plagues and the wrath of God. Don't feel bad about not believing in God? I don't think that you'll be saying that once you read what will happen if you don't read about it.

Agreed. You have your own free will. The only thing I disagree about though is that you're saying that you should get mixed in with the world. to not stand out. to follow the examples of the world. You're gonna want to accept God and not turn from Him. You're gonna wish you hadn't after the rapture. Trust me

I would like to point out some differences between Elijah Muhhamad. Muhhamad was a pedophile who according to this book called the hadiifs, married a 6 year old girl and had sex with her when she was 9 years old. He was 54 years old when they were wed.Jesus was sinless. He told people to be holy, as your father in heaven is holy. Jesus said to love your enemy and pray for those who despitefully use you. Muhhamad said to kill the infidels and cut them off at the neck. Jesus said in heaven, we would be like the angels, that is to say we will have a celestial or heavenly body. Muhhamad said people who blow themselves up for allah would get 70 virgins . I wonder what girls get in heaven. Elijah muhhamad killed and be-headed 800 jews while their families were forced to watch. Jesus was crucified in front of the jewish people and the sanhedrin. muslims like to claim that christians and muslims serve the same god. A god who has 2 prophets who have such opposite things to say would be a schizophrenic. Christians serve the true and living God and his son Jesus the Christ. muslims serve allah the false moon god.

[laneolaneo1]

^ There are many falsehoods in the above post, for example: http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2002/jan/1...guardianreview5

I won't point them all out, as I fear any challenges would fall on deaf ears.

Mr. Shiver- healthy doses of common sense? I like you already

[Mr. Shiver]

Mr. Shiver- healthy doses of common sense? I like you already

I still have faith, in spite of everything. My mind has just been developed in such a way that I can't accept the idea of atheism. Not yet. But consider me skeptical anyway.

Edited August 8, 2008 by Mr. Shiver

[Sold out Christian]

People CAN worship the same God, in different ways which correspond with their language and cultural upbringing. To deny that is pure ignorance of the world around you.

I never said that people can't worship God in different ways. I said that every worship practice.not the correct way. Don't try to twist my words. You can worship a false 'god' in any way and it is all wrong. People can worship the one True God in many different ways. Some people raise their hands. Some people dance.

^ There are many falsehoods in the above post, for example: http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2002/jan/1...guardianreview5

I won't point them all out, as I fear any challenges would fall on deaf ears.

Mr. Shiver- healthy doses of common sense? I like you already

Aisha herself is qouted in the beloved muslim books the Hadeefs, and talks all about how Elijah Muhhomad married her when she was six years old and all other things of this matter that I qouted above. Aisha herself WROTE that passage of the Hadeefs. how then, could it be false? Read the Haddefs and tell me what you find.

Well, to be honest, I'd say I actually do have a broad view of Christianity, thanks to growing up in a Christian country (secular, but still Christian), and having been educated about different religions in school. Secondly, I'd like to point out that the Orthodox Church by no means is protestant: in 1054 (long before protestants), the one Christian church separated into two in Constantinople: the Catholic and the Orthodox church. Now you might say they're still close to each other, but do take into account that they excommunicated each other, and this excommunication was lifted only in 1965. As you mentioned, the protestants were born from the Catholic church, for example the Lutheran Church was formed when Martin Luther wanted to fight the corruption of the Catholic Church. However, I'd say that us protestants (I'm still a member of a Church, though not active at all) have major differences to Catholics in our beliefs; firstly, we have fewer sacraments (a key difference), and the church is very liberal by allowing female priests and not condemning abortion - heck, we're even talking about allowing same-sex marriages in Churches here! Now what I can agree with you in is the fact that the different protestant sects are very close to each other - I'd say the main difference in addition to the doctrines you mentioned is how liberal the church is, some are very liberal, others aren't.

Just because a church calls itself Christian, doesn't make it Christian. That church has to have the right doctrine. Many people call themselves Christians, but they are really not. You see, you can't just be a Christian in your mind, you have to be a Christian in your heart, spirit and soul. That may sound chessey, but it's the truth. I can say that i'm a robot, but does that make me a robot unless i'm actually machanical? the same goes ot the church. A gay church or one that supports same sex marrage is not a real Christian church.

I'm feeling very pragmatic right now and so I'm gonna go right ahead and contradict myself.

Maybe it isn't a shame. Maybe it's perfectly acceptable. Actually, maybe it's even necessary for survival.

But after living 17 years on this earth, I've decided I would be ashamed if I did that.

We all have to believe in something. How was the universe created? We all have our own opinions. But, does any of us know for sure? Were any of us there when that happened? No matter how you beleive the universe was created, or if it always exixted, you have FAITH that your view is true. Isn't that right?

[Mr. Shiver]

I never said that people can't worship God in different ways. I said that every worship practice.not the correct way. Don't try to twist my words. You can worship a false 'god' in any way and it is all wrong. People can worship the one True God in many different ways. Some people raise their hands. Some people dance.

When I say people can worship the same God in different ways, I mean that people can have different religions and different sects of religions and different sub-sects of sects of religions and whatever the hell else. And they can still all be making a legitimate spiritual connection to the same divine force that may exist. And none of them are right or wrong, they just make that connection in whichever way they know how to. This makes much more sense than denying the legitimacy of other religious beliefs whose followers have been conditioned differently than you.

Also: What makes you distinguish between the "true God" and "false gods"? Belief. Therefore, the very concept of a "true God" and "false gods" is entirely unprovable and can't be considered universally true.

We all have to believe in something. How was the universe created? We all have our own opinions. But, does any of us know for sure? Were any of us there when that happened? No matter how you beleive the universe was created, or if it always exixted, you have FAITH that your view is true. Isn't that right?

Just because you have faith that something is true, that doesn't mean it is. And that's the problem with religious dogmas, in my view. They derive truth from belief, causing so much narrow-mindedness and prejudice as a result.

Edited August 14, 2008 by Mr. Shiver

[Sold out Christian]

Pretty much, yeah. Except Jews and Muslims don't believe in the trinity concept. Any differences in name are just due to differences in language.

Christians and Jews do worship the same God. But muslims worship a different false god. Ask any jew or CHristian if they believe in allah, the 'god' the muslims worship, and, if they are true to their religion, they will say no. Also, the jews do not believe that Jesus was the Messiah. Christian know that Jesus was the Messiah.

I absolutely agree with you on that.

It's human nature to only see things from one's own point of view (although that doesn't make it any less foolish). In such a competitive world, empathy seems to be considered a waste of time.

People are afraid to discover that what they thought was true might not be after all. That's where faith comes in. And it's a shame that we forget that having faith in something doesn't make it true.

How is that being unfairly judged I ask? You choose not to believe. God does have to judge when the time comes, which is probably not long from now (but who knows). Family Guy is a terrible show full of sex, violence, blood, and bad jokes about Jesus and about other problems in this world. You can't possibly use that show against me or God. They make fun of God Himself (and they really stink at it). Don't even use that show against me here.

I'm also gonna guess that you're taking all of the other people's advice on this forum instead...Oh well. I'll never give in.

How could you qoute family guy? That is the worst back up I've ever heard. God is HOLY, and we are exactally the opposet. we are all unworthy of Eternal life. The wages of sin is DEATH! Jesus came to earth and paid that wage dor us because He loves us! He will forgive us and grant us eternal life in heaven, but we must first confess to Him our sins, confess that He is Savior and Lord, believe in God the Father, accept Jesus as our savior, and pray each day. God wants US!!

When I say people can worship the same God in different ways, I mean that people can have different religions and different sects of religions and different sub-sects of sects of religions and whatever the hell else. And they can still all be making a legitimate spiritual connection to the same divine force that may exist. And none of them are right or wrong, they just make that connection in whichever way they know how to. This makes much more sense than denying the legitimacy of other religious beliefs whose followers have been conditioned differently than you.

Also: What makes you distinguish between the "true God" and "false gods"? Belief. Therefore, the very concept of a "true God" and "false gods" is entirely unprovable and can't be considered universally true.

Just because you have faith that something is true, that doesn't mean it is. And that's the problem with religious dogmas, in my view. They derive truth from belief, causing so much narrow-mindedness and prejudice as a result.

Not everything can be true, but something is true. the way you word it makes it sound like sound like ALL faith is false. IT"S NOT!!!

[Sadza]

This is awkward. I can't help but sense a hint of fury from this fiery and, might I say, controversial debate.

I would like to point out some differences between Elijah Muhhamad. Muhhamad was a pedophile who according to this book called the hadiifs, married a 6 year old girl and had sex with her when she was 9 years old. He was 54 years old when they were wed.Jesus was sinless. He told people to be holy, as your father in heaven is holy. Jesus said to love your enemy and pray for those who despitefully use you. Muhhamad said to kill the infidels and cut them off at the neck. Jesus said in heaven, we would be like the angels, that is to say we will have a celestial or heavenly body. Muhhamad said people who blow themselves up for allah would get 70 virgins . I wonder what girls get in heaven. Elijah muhhamad killed and be-headed 800 jews while their families were forced to watch. Jesus was crucified in front of the jewish people and the sanhedrin. muslims like to claim that christians and muslims serve the same god. A god who has 2 prophets who have such opposite things to say would be a schizophrenic. Christians serve the true and living God and his son Jesus the Christ. muslims serve allah the false moon god.

First of all, Elijah Muhammad is not Muhammad. Elijah was a man who once led the Nation of Islam which is an organization meant to bring African American people together with Islam. Muhammad is the prophet of Islam.

As for the Hadiths, not every Muslim follows it. There are Muslims who use only the Qur'an to practice Islam. Such a religion cannot be degraded so easily. For a deeper understanding on the subject of Islam, I recommend that you visit a site like http://www.yuksel.org

[Xerox]

can someone just explain to me something i have been wondering about, how do you know that the bible is "god's will" ??

The first passages of the new testament were written 40 years AFTER jesus death... (well the same for islam really)

Sometimes i wonder if the church of scientology shows us how cristianity really spread...

As the guy who started it wrote in another book, which was something like how to become rich, start a sect and convince rich people to join

so that they give you money etc... so well isn't religion just some men's way of getting power in the old day.

It is not like christians are nice or so, just look at history, the church killed a lot of people. And well muhammed had similar

ways of seeing stuff at any 600 century warlord... And yeah well if you believe that the church actually voted what should be in the

bible and what shouldn't then what the heck

[Haney]

Ok i'm someone who just read the subject and nothing else, but that's enough to get me going!

DON"T FEEL BAD ABOUT YOURSELF!!!!!!!!!!!!!

i'm supposedly catholic and i go to an anglican school. there are muslim people here as well, and atheist.

Look- it's up to you- don't get pressured, especially not by guilt or anything like that!

I'm still on the if-y side, and so are alot of people at my school.

think of it this way- if you want to try it you can, and it DOES help if you take it the right way- i.e. thinking there is someone who cares about you no matter what you do, but not if you end up locking yourself away to escape from sin or anything like that! (SORRY- I KNOW THIS IS EXTREMELY BIASED AND CONTRAVERSIAL... BUT DON'T BE OFFENDED, THIS IS JSUT MY POINT)

Basically, don't feel bad because you aren't. when you really feel like you want to give it a go, go then and feel good.