Why don't you believe in God?

[mollypolly190]

I just spent the last 30 minutes reading an old thread on God and the correlation between intelligence and religious beliefs. Personally, I am very well educated and top of my class and yet I still have strong religious beliefs. But this is besides the point, I only use myself as an example. This question is generally directed to anyone who is atheist, agnostic, or just is completely unsure! (But of course anyone feel free to answer, I'd also love to hear the religious side of the argument!)

So, in essence of saving time I'll be direct; If anyone out there doesn't believe in God, why? I honestly just want to hear your opinion and what lead you to your beliefs. Was it lack of religious background, your education, a personal revelation? What reasons do you have for not believing in God and will your beliefs ever change? Do you look down upon people who do believe in God/how do you treat them and their beliefs? And please anyone who is religious feel free to comment the inverse! I'd like to see a very unbiased debate on the issue because I am genuinely curious and interested in your answers. Thank you all!

[aldld]

Surely other people are going to have different responses, but the reason I don't believe in any god or gods is that I don't have any reason to believe. No child is born believing in a god, it's a behaviour that's picked up from their environment as they grow up. So really, the default position is atheism (Or agnosticism if you like, but personally I think that term is often used as a cop out for various reasons). Beginning with that, there isn't really any convincing argument that I've heard of (and I've heard many) which leads to the conclusion that god(s) exist.

Edit: Just to add: If you care, I didn't have any particular moment or epiphany when I thought about this. I've grown up in a loosely Christian household, as in most of my family identifies as Christian but it's not the entire focus of their lives.

Edited September 30, 2012 by aldld

[mollypolly190]

Surely other people are going to have different responses, but the reason I don't believe in any god or gods is that I don't have any reason to believe. No child is born believing in a god, it's a behaviour that's picked up from their environment as they grow up. So really, the default position is atheism (Or agnosticism if you like, but personally I think that term is often used as a cop out for various reasons). Beginning with that, there isn't really any convincing argument that I've heard of (and I've heard many) which leads to the conclusion that god(s) exist.

Edit: Just to add: If you care, I didn't have any particular moment or epiphany when I thought about this. I've grown up in a loosely Christian household, as in most of my family identifies as Christian but it's not the entire focus of their lives.

Thank you so much for your answer! I've been raised in a religious household my whole life and I've come to terms with the fact that my beliefs are mostly inherited from my parents. However I know many people who have the same history and grow up to find that they themselves do not believe in God. Yet I still hold strong in my beliefs because I have matured enough on my own to understanding my personal opinions on religion and I find that even without the guidance of my parents I would still believe in God. I am just extremely curious to hear the other side of the religion debate, and I'm really happy that you shared this with me

[Aura]

I don't believe in god for one simple reason: I don't need to.

Also, religions seem quite imaginary and fanciful (and life-conditioning) to me. But hey, the Universe itself is quite strange! So I'm cool with people having beliefs of their own, because frankly, anything could happen and we just don't know anything for certain

PD: I just used Google to translate 'fantasioso' into 'fanciful' because I couldn't think up a word for it, so I'm sorry if it doesn't mean what I wanted to say

[funny10sport]

So, in essence of saving time I'll be direct; If anyone out there doesn't believe in God, why? I honestly just want to hear your opinion and what lead you to your beliefs. Was it lack of religious background, your education, a personal revelation? What reasons do you have for not believing in God and will your beliefs ever change? Do you look down upon people who do believe in God/how do you treat them and their beliefs? And please anyone who is religious feel free to comment the inverse! I'd like to see a very unbiased debate on the issue because I am genuinely curious and interested in your answers. Thank you all!

I think I will give a different and "religious" side to this thread by answering your questions in inverse.

And before people get jumpy, I am in no means shoving religion down people's throats, this is simply sharing my personal experience and how I chose to live my life.

1. If anyone out there does not believe in God, why? Was it lack of religious background, your education, a personal revelation? Inverse: If anyone out there believes in God, why? Is it because of religious background, your education, a personal revelation?

I am a Christian and I believe in God. You could say one thing that influenced my faith was because of my religious background. I was raised in a Christian home (with my mom and sister) and have attended church since I was little. As long as I can remember I knew who Christ was but I didn't really understand what it meant to have a personal relationship with him. Lots of horrible things have come in my life (death, broken father relationship, anxiety, depression, social pressure...)and many times I have questioned things. But I know that God has worked himself in my life and that without him, I would have never made it. I have experienced his love, which is I guess you can call that a personal revelation. So yes, my upbringing played a part but I would say it is also my understanding of salvation (Christ's death for my sins and his resurrection) which explains why I believe in God.

2. What reasons do you have for not believing in God and will your beliefs ever change? Inverse: What reasons do you have for believing in God and will your beliefs ever change?

I answered the first part above. My beliefs won't change no matter how many times people try to convince me otherwise (Dad's Sikh family trying to convert me, my Atheist peers, teachers...). I know what it is like to live my life independently from him and to live it for myself, and I would choose following him over going back to that any day. "I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me." (Galatians 2:20)This verse pretty much sums up how I feel regarding to my Faith.

3. Do you look down upon people who do believe in God/how do you treat them and their beliefs? Inverse: Do you look down upon people who do not believe in God/How do you treat them and their beliefs?

As indicated earlier, a large part of my family come from a Sikh background. I treat them and others just like how I treat any other normal human being, with respect. I tolerate their beliefs, as in where the definition of tolerance means to accept the existence of different views in this world. This however does not change my personal faith.

[Sandwich]

I don't believe in god for the same reasons that I don't believe in flying carpet monsters, unicorns, whatever... The default position is not to believe in everything and then have somebody take those beliefs away, you've got to start out by being given a reason to believe. So exactly what aldld said, really, I'm not religious because I don't need to be and have no reason to be.

In terms of background, I guess neither of my parents paid much attention to religion either in terms of how I was brought up, except obviously to explain why other people do what they do when I asked - wear scarves on their heads, spend their sunday mornings listening to book readings in church, won't eat pork and all that jazz. I went to a christian school, and most of it was quite gentle moralising - treat others as you wish to be treated, don't say horrible things because you can't take them back and all that stuff, so it wasn't too hardcore. But I guess I never took any of it literally, to me they seemed just stories with messages - like Aesop's fables or something. I didn't really think about religion being relevant to me until I found out that if you weren't religious, you went to hell, and I freaked out because at the age of 7 I wanted my parents to be with me. Obviously they'd be in hell, and I'd be in heaven, which wasn't good. Then I thought about it and realised that the whole thing seemed exceptionally stupid to me because both my parents are fundamentally good people who do everything that the stories said you should do. Be nice to your neighbours, help people in distress, etc etc. And I did as well. So if we did all end up in hell, then god was a massive hypocrite because actually we'd been more 'godly' than half the people who DID believe in god - basically the deal breaker was pretending that the stories were all real, and to go to hell because you didn't believe the stories seemed beyond ridiculous. I used to read loads of books and stories as a kid and it seemed vaguely mental to me that I should randomly select one story and say it was real. Obviously since then I have read the arguments for and against god and my basis for rejecting the arguments for god is no longer based on childish outrage at how stupid the system seemed to be The arguments FOR god are fundamentally weak, and the weight of actual evidence of things in the world just contradicts religious claims. So it seems highly unreasonable to believe. I doubt my views will change unless (much like if I DID see a flying carpet monster) somebody comes up with a valid reason - the main reason I doubt my views will change is that I can't really think of a reason or way you would do that unless god appeared or somebody came back from the dead and told us it was all real/generally crazy things.

As for what I think of religious people, I don't look down on them - but in my opinion they are basing their whole lives on a burden of sketchy evidence, half-arguments and mostly just beliefs which have been passed down and imprinted on them from a young age that they've somehow either accepted the illogicality or never thought about. As I personally find that extremely unpalatable and could never live either an unquestioning life or alternatively a life of somehow warping the answers to the questions/accepting answers which are extremely unsatisfactory, then I do feel like religious people are very different from me. They've constructed a part of their thoughts which exists independently of normal standards for everything else in the world, like a little haven of ignorance that allows them to overlook massively fundamental things or make leaps of thinking which have no backing and yet they feel comfortable with that. To me, it seems like a massive blind spot - and I suppose I think that people who are a bit more academic tend to realise the power of clear thinking, logic, standards of proof etc., and WILL think about things more, so it does amaze me that some of those same people can have this parallel aspect of them which doesn't apply these things at all and is happy not to. It worries me a bit that religious people can exclude huge areas of their life from normal thought processes and believe things against evidence to the contrary or in the absence of any evidence pointing to it. So I wouldn't say I look down on religious people, but obviously their minds don't operate in a way I can understand and it would be a lie to say I don't view people differently for it. Perhaps I'm just missing that part of me which NEEDS some kind of higher being but in general the concept of religion just seems very random and arbitrary to me. Not to mention, unnecessary! The world is fine as it is, we don't need to create a secondary invisible world of invisible things on top of it.

[mollypolly190]

As for what I think of religious people, I don't look down on them - but in my opinion they are basing their whole lives on a burden of sketchy evidence, half-arguments and mostly just beliefs which have been passed down and imprinted on them from a young age that they've somehow either accepted the illogicality or never thought about. As I personally find that extremely unpalatable and could never live either an unquestioning life or alternatively a life of somehow warping the answers to the questions/accepting answers which are extremely unsatisfactory, then I do feel like religious people are very different from me. They've constructed a part of their thoughts which exists independently of normal standards for everything else in the world, like a little haven of ignorance that allows them to overlook massively fundamental things or make leaps of thinking which have no backing and yet they feel comfortable with that. To me, it seems like a massive blind spot - and I suppose I think that people who are a bit more academic tend to realise the power of clear thinking, logic, standards of proof etc., and WILL think about things more, so it does amaze me that some of those same people can have this parallel aspect of them which doesn't apply these things at all and is happy not to. It worries me a bit that religious people can exclude huge areas of their life from normal thought processes and believe things against evidence to the contrary or in the absence of any evidence pointing to it. So I wouldn't say I look down on religious people, but obviously their minds don't operate in a way I can understand and it would be a lie to say I don't view people differently for it. Perhaps I'm just missing that part of me which NEEDS some kind of higher being but in general the concept of religion just seems very random and arbitrary to me. Not to mention, unnecessary! The world is fine as it is, we don't need to create a secondary invisible world of invisible things on top of it.

Thank you for answering! If you don't mind I'd like to ask a a few questions based on your response as a whole but more specifically this section. (If the following appears to offend you I apologize immensely, I mean in absolutely no way to judge your personal beliefs I just have a few questions that I would like to hear elaborated on by someone who does not believe in God)

Mainly, I respect the fact that as an intellectual you try to understand your world better by seeing through only facts and logic, however do you feel that there is an empty portion of you correlated with the fact that you refute God based only on logic? This may make more sense in my head than to anyone who reads this but humans feel powerful emotions, such a love and hate. Personally I find that I cannot understand why I myself may love someone that another does not and I also can't find a concrete scientific explanation either. So hypothetically if this was true for you is it wrong to say that maybe those feelings have a "greater purpose" or that they were caused by something that could possibly be even more complicated than science itself? Also, without your belief in God do you also believe that once you die those very emotions you used to posses will just cease to exist completely?

As a person of faith myself I am trying to understand the opposite side of my own beliefs, and I'm entirely grateful that everyone here is willingly and openly sharing their own!

Edited September 30, 2012 by mollypolly190

[mollypolly190]

I don't believe in god for one simple reason: I don't need to.

I find through a lot of people I have asked this question to that this is their answer, so if you don't mind may I ask another? Just because you don't see the need to believe in God does that mean you believe in only logic and the proven?

[citizenoftheuniverse]

"Mainly, I respect the fact that as an intellectual you try to understand your world better by seeing through only facts and logic, however do you feel that there is an empty portion of you correlated with the fact that you refute God based only on logic?"

I know this wasn't directed at me, but I wanna answer XP. I feel like it is somewhat assuming to think that just because someone doesn't believe in a god, they have an empty portion. However, I do see that that assumption is core to religious belief. It is a core belief in Christianity that god fulfills a certain hole in us, and thus Christians belive that non-believers have a "hole" or "empty portion" as you call it. However, you must see that we atheists don't feel that way. We DON'T feel incomplete or like something is missing.

"...by seeing through only facts and logic." This portion also contains some assumptions about atheism that I feel are wrong. The ways of knowing (TOK XP lol) are reason, emotion, language and sense perception. Saying that atheists only use reason etc. is saying that we are missing a fundamental Way of Knowing, emotion. You are saying we are missing something. (Of course I see why this as well is fundamental to your beliefs as well.) However, you do see that that is somewhat presumptuous. We have emotions too XP. And just because someone is atheist doesn't mean they aren't appreciative of the beauty of nature and humanity etc. I do not consider myself to have poor emotional development. I make decisions partially using emotion as well. Theism is not the only "spiritually fulfilling" way of seeing the world.

Sorry if I sounded like I was critisizing you. I as an atheist have had similar questions about Christianity and theism. They too could be seen as biased against Christianity just as yours are biased towards your own beliefs. I respect that you are intellectually curious and want to see the other side of the argument.

[citizenoftheuniverse]

Oh, and to your original question XP. There genuinely has been a study that showed that higher levels of eduation correlate with lower levels of religious belief. Though again, correlation isn't causation. Wikipedia has a article on this that you might find interesting and I would like to see your response: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religiosity_and_intelligence

One study mentioned in the article: "In 2008, intelligence researcher Helmuth Nyborg examined whether IQ relates to denomination and income, using representative data from the National Longitudinal Study of Youth, which includes intelligence tests on a representative selection of white American youth, where they have also replied to questions about religious belief. His results, published in the scientific journal Intelligence, demonstrated that Atheists scored an average of 1.95 IQ points higher than Agnostics, 3.82 points higher than Liberal persuasions, and 5.89 IQ points higher than Dogmatic persuasions.^[5]"

[mollypolly190]

"Mainly, I respect the fact that as an intellectual you try to understand your world better by seeing through only facts and logic, however do you feel that there is an empty portion of you correlated with the fact that you refute God based only on logic?"

I know this wasn't directed at me, but I wanna answer XP. I feel like it is somewhat assuming to think that just because someone doesn't believe in a god, they have an empty portion. However, I do see that that assumption is core to religious belief. It is a core belief in Christianity that god fulfills a certain hole in us, and thus Christians belive that non-believers have a "hole" or "empty portion" as you call it. However, you must see that we atheists don't feel that way. We DON'T feel incomplete or like something is missing.

"...by seeing through only facts and logic." This portion also contains some assumptions about atheism that I feel are wrong. The ways of knowing (TOK XP lol) are reason, emotion, language and sense perception. Saying that atheists only use reason etc. is saying that we are missing a fundamental Way of Knowing, emotion. You are saying we are missing something. (Of course I see why this as well is fundamental to your beliefs as well.) However, you do see that that is somewhat presumptuous. We have emotions too XP. And just because someone is atheist doesn't mean they aren't appreciative of the beauty of nature and humanity etc. I do not consider myself to have poor emotional development. I make decisions partially using emotion as well. Theism is not the only "spiritually fulfilling" way of seeing the world.

Sorry if I sounded like I was critisizing you. I as an atheist have had similar questions about Christianity and theism. They too could be seen as biased against Christianity just as yours are biased towards your own beliefs. I respect that you are intellectually curious and want to see the other side of the argument.

Thank you for this response, I would like the clarify that I didn't mean to offend you or to criticize atheism. I think that this is a great example of the gap of understanding between religious and non religious peoples. Inadvertently I immediately began to try and understate the idea of non-belief by comparing it to what I personally believe which is the central reason for the religious debate itself! Again, I would like to apologize, I in no way meant to be biased. I guess what I was trying to deduce for myself was how one aspect of my religion compared to the similar aspect of atheism. I made the assumption that because I believe in a greater power that anyone who didn't was missing out on something. To rephrase the question I originally asked: Atheists, have you ever considered that there is a greater power that humans and science cannot explain or has the issue never been raised because it is simply not something you believe?

Also as to your point of higher intelligence correlation with religious belief: I myself come from a family of high intelligence and yet we all believe in God. I do understand that as education continues we tend to need facts and logic is all aspects of proving a thesis. I also recognize that science can explain a lot of things and yet it can't explain many others. I think that's the best part of the debate because people will so easily take one side without realizing that they really will never be able to fully prove or understand it! But myself as an example, even though I am a firm believer in the science of our current generation I also believe that there is something out there that is just greater than humans. This isn't to say I don't believe the Big Bang Theory, or the theory of evolution. I know personally that I don't believe 100% everything the Bible tells me and I also don't agree 100% with everything science tells me. Honestly that's what I love the most, I can agree with the facts but I still have a part inside of me that believes something out there is just much more powerful than humans. With this next statement I do NOT mean to offend anyone but I have noticed that scientists need to prove and believe that they are correct to be successful. So I see the rejection of religion as a basic need of the job for them so that they are able to concentrate on their work with the mindset that they are in charge and right. Nobody who wants to understand the theory of life wants to believe that something out there is one step ahead. Again, this isn't meant to offend. PLEASE understand that up until now that was my view of atheism, which I obviously see as biased and unfair to atheists as a whole. That's why I started this thread. I would love to hear your real life accounts of your belief and I want to be able to understand beyond my misconceptions

[Sandwich]

Thank you for answering! If you don't mind I'd like to ask a a few questions based on your response as a whole but more specifically this section. (If the following appears to offend you I apologize immensely, I mean in absolutely no way to judge your personal beliefs I just have a few questions that I would like to hear elaborated on by someone who does not believe in God)

Mainly, I respect the fact that as an intellectual you try to understand your world better by seeing through only facts and logic, however do you feel that there is an empty portion of you correlated with the fact that you refute God based only on logic? This may make more sense in my head than to anyone who reads this but humans feel powerful emotions, such a love and hate. Personally I find that I cannot understand why I myself may love someone that another does not and I also can't find a concrete scientific explanation either. So hypothetically if this was true for you is it wrong to say that maybe those feelings have a "greater purpose" or that they were caused by something that could possibly be even more complicated than science itself? Also, without your belief in God do you also believe that once you die those very emotions you used to posses will just cease to exist completely?

As a person of faith myself I am trying to understand the opposite side of my own beliefs, and I'm entirely grateful that everyone here is willingly and openly sharing their own!

My response to the fact that there might be a hole in me (!!!) would be exactly the same as citizenoftheuniverse's. If god is filling a 'hole' in some people then great for them, but I don't have a hole that needs filling. It's just a really weird thing to say.

Seeing the world 'only through logic and the proven' isn't entirely true either. Certainly we all see the world emotionally as well, attach significance to things, have relationships, feel love, feel hate and so on. However my emotions are my own. I don't understand why there needs to be some other person in this equation or why there would be? If I love somebody then to be honest I find it slightly creepy to say that god is controlling me to love someone. The more likely explanation is that I love them because I know them, I care for them, I have things in common with them and at the end of the day, we're social animals and it's been advantageous to us over millennia to form attachments and bonds, as well as to be able to use negative social behaviours like hate. I don't think that my emotions are projected on me by some other being, or see why that seems like a reasonable thing to say

And obviously I have no idea and actually nobody does, but if our 'selves' are a function of our physical bodies (which seems true), then when we die I suppose everything will just stop. It's a sweet thought that we continue on somehow, but I don't think it's likely - still, no harm in imagining what might happen if it makes you feel better about things.

I also recognize that science can explain a lot of things and yet it can't explain many others.

I fundamentally disagree with this quote ahah. Science cannot YET explain some things. Science isn't a 'thing', it's just tested observations of the world. Back in the day, 'science' could not explain why there were tides. So everybody assumed (for reasons which escape me entirely) that an invisible man was doing it. Now science can explain tides. Science is just the process of looking for and finding the explanation for something - and the more people look, the less and less things it seems are being done by the invisible man. It seems like an absolute madness to me to say that if we don't know why something's happening, it proves the existence of an invisible man. If we don't know why something is happening, what's wrong with just saying "we don't know"? I don't understand exactly how my TV works but it doesn't make me certain about the presence of little television pixies. As we discover how things work, 'god' is doing less and less of it. So why should we assume he was doing any to begin with? I find it a lot more likely (and consistent with the history of all human discovery) that we just don't understand something yet than that the explanation for anything is an invisible man.

Also, people aren't 'jealous' of god being a step ahead or something. I find that quite a bizarre way to think about things!! Science is the process of discovering things - it's not like all the scientists are going to go "oh right well now that god's around, trying to discover things will stop because he's already beaten us to it". There are even religious scientists who have somehow managed to stay motivated despite the apparently depressing fact that god's got there first. I mean, if god got there first, he's very reluctant to share his knowledge with anybody or anyone (in fact, he never has). Are you suggesting that if all scientists were religious we'd have nobody doing any science at all because clearly the answer was 'god' all along?! I know I'm exaggerating what you just said, but either I've misunderstood what you meant or you'll have to admit it's a bit of an odd argument.

I'd also like to point out that this is not a real life account of my beliefs. This is a real life account of the fact that I don't have beliefs in this area and am puzzled by the fact that other people do. If you say that we all have our own beliefs to be respected, then it basically becomes just a listening exercise because it's taboo to tell people that their beliefs are a bit mental or are right/wrong. Everybody just sits there and thinks their own beliefs still and pretends to be interested in other people's (or maybe they actually are interested, but the fact remains that they'd never change anything about their beliefs on the back of other people's and vice versa). At the end of the day, there's an absolute truth somewhere - either there is or there isn't a god, for instance. We can't all have equally valid opinions. Some of us are right and some of us are wrong, so it would be nonsensical to say that all beliefs are equal and deserve equal respect.

A belief is a groundless supposition for which there is no evidence, so it's quite easy to not have any. And when the whole point is that I have no beliefs, I do find the good old patronising "your beliefs" language somewhat inaccurate.

[mollypolly190]

Thank you for answering! If you don't mind I'd like to ask a a few questions based on your response as a whole but more specifically this section. (If the following appears to offend you I apologize immensely, I mean in absolutely no way to judge your personal beliefs I just have a few questions that I would like to hear elaborated on by someone who does not believe in God)

Mainly, I respect the fact that as an intellectual you try to understand your world better by seeing through only facts and logic, however do you feel that there is an empty portion of you correlated with the fact that you refute God based only on logic? This may make more sense in my head than to anyone who reads this but humans feel powerful emotions, such a love and hate. Personally I find that I cannot understand why I myself may love someone that another does not and I also can't find a concrete scientific explanation either. So hypothetically if this was true for you is it wrong to say that maybe those feelings have a "greater purpose" or that they were caused by something that could possibly be even more complicated than science itself? Also, without your belief in God do you also believe that once you die those very emotions you used to posses will just cease to exist completely?

As a person of faith myself I am trying to understand the opposite side of my own beliefs, and I'm entirely grateful that everyone here is willingly and openly sharing their own!

My response to the fact that there might be a hole in me (!!!) would be exactly the same as citizenoftheuniverse's. If god is filling a 'hole' in some people then great for them, but I don't have a hole that needs filling. It's just a really weird thing to say.

Seeing the world 'only through logic and the proven' isn't entirely true either. Certainly we all see the world emotionally as well, attach significance to things, have relationships, feel love, feel hate and so on. However my emotions are my own. I don't understand why there needs to be some other person in this equation or why there would be? If I love somebody then to be honest I find it slightly creepy to say that god is controlling me to love someone. The more likely explanation is that I love them because I know them, I care for them, I have things in common with them and at the end of the day, we're social animals and it's been advantageous to us over millennia to form attachments and bonds, as well as to be able to use negative social behaviours like hate. I don't think that my emotions are projected on me by some other being, or see why that seems like a reasonable thing to say

And obviously I have no idea and actually nobody does, but if our 'selves' are a function of our physical bodies (which seems true), then when we die I suppose everything will just stop. It's a sweet thought that we continue on somehow, but I don't think it's likely - still, no harm in imagining what might happen if it makes you feel better about things.

I also recognize that science can explain a lot of things and yet it can't explain many others.

I fundamentally disagree with this quote ahah. Science cannot YET explain some things. Science isn't a 'thing', it's just tested observations of the world. Back in the day, 'science' could not explain why there were tides. So everybody assumed (for reasons which escape me entirely) that an invisible man was doing it. Now science can explain tides. Science is just the process of looking for and finding the explanation for something - and the more people look, the less and less things it seems are being done by the invisible man. It seems like an absolute madness to me to say that if we don't know why something's happening, it proves the existence of an invisible man. If we don't know why something is happening, what's wrong with just saying "we don't know"? I don't understand exactly how my TV works but it doesn't make me certain about the presence of little television pixies. As we discover how things work, 'god' is doing less and less of it. So why should we assume he was doing any to begin with? I find it a lot more likely (and consistent with the history of all human discovery) that we just don't understand something yet than that the explanation for anything is an invisible man.

Also, people aren't 'jealous' of god being a step ahead or something. I find that quite a bizarre way to think about things!! Science is the process of discovering things - it's not like all the scientists are going to go "oh right well now that god's around, trying to discover things will stop because he's already beaten us to it". There are even religious scientists who have somehow managed to stay motivated despite the apparently depressing fact that god's got there first. I mean, if god got there first, he's very reluctant to share his knowledge with anybody or anyone (in fact, he never has). Are you suggesting that if all scientists were religious we'd have nobody doing any science at all because clearly the answer was 'god' all along?! I know I'm exaggerating what you just said, but either I've misunderstood what you meant or you'll have to admit it's a bit of an odd argument.

I'd also like to point out that this is not a real life account of my beliefs. This is a real life account of the fact that I don't have beliefs in this area and am puzzled by the fact that other people do. If you say that we all have our own beliefs to be respected, then it basically becomes just a listening exercise because it's taboo to tell people that their beliefs are a bit mental or are right/wrong. Everybody just sits there and thinks their own beliefs still and pretends to be interested in other people's (or maybe they actually are interested, but the fact remains that they'd never change anything about their beliefs on the back of other people's and vice versa). At the end of the day, there's an absolute truth somewhere - either there is or there isn't a god, for instance. We can't all have equally valid opinions. Some of us are right and some of us are wrong, so it would be nonsensical to say that all beliefs are equal and deserve equal respect.

A belief is a groundless supposition for which there is no evidence, so it's quite easy to not have any. And when the whole point is that I have no beliefs, I do find the good old patronising "your beliefs" language somewhat inaccurate.

I'd like to apologize. It seems as though you have taken all of my statements personally and assume them to offend you. Again I apologize, I created this thread in an effort to understand atheism and as consequence our religious differences have already put us at a disagreement. As I said those used to be my views on atheism. Currently I don't know what to believe which is why I am trying to seek understanding directly from you all

Yes, I do agree that you have exaggerated some of my statements but I am personally at fault for not being able to state them clearly and directly, I honestly do not want this thread to be a disagreement, I probably shouldn't have commented on these responses at all and let them play out. However you may call me somewhat ignorant about atheism and I am just trying to learn

Please be patient, this is something I am unfamiliar with and I only want your views

Edited September 30, 2012 by mollypolly190

[Sandwich]

I'd like to apologize. It seems as though you have taken all of my statements personally and assume them to offend you. Again I apologize, I created this thread in an effort to understand atheism and as consequence our religious differences have already put us at a disagreement. As I said those used to be my views on atheism. Currently I don't know what to believe which is why I am trying to seek understanding directly from you all

Yes, I do agree that you have exaggerated some of my statements but I am personally at fault for not being able to state them clearly and directly, I honestly do not want this thread to be a disagreement, I probably shouldn't have commented on these responses at all and let them play out. However you may call me somewhat ignorant about atheism and I am just trying to learn

Please be patient, this is something I am unfamiliar with and I only want your views

!!

No need to apologise, I'm not offended by anything you said! I was just trying to answer your questions and continue the discussion. Threads aren't interesting if nobody disagrees with each other, the whole point of debating things is to make a case for your views, so don't feel worried about doing it. I like debating things

[Fermat]

I don't really know why but God seems so unlikely to me. I think that God is just something people made up to give them hope, answers and whatnot. And I know that all the scientific theories can't all be proven but those are the one's I chose to believe.

[mollypolly190]

I'd like to apologize. It seems as though you have taken all of my statements personally and assume them to offend you. Again I apologize, I created this thread in an effort to understand atheism and as consequence our religious differences have already put us at a disagreement. As I said those used to be my views on atheism. Currently I don't know what to believe which is why I am trying to seek understanding directly from you all

Yes, I do agree that you have exaggerated some of my statements but I am personally at fault for not being able to state them clearly and directly, I honestly do not want this thread to be a disagreement, I probably shouldn't have commented on these responses at all and let them play out. However you may call me somewhat ignorant about atheism and I am just trying to learn

Please be patient, this is something I am unfamiliar with and I only want your views

!!

No need to apologise, I'm not offended by anything you said! I was just trying to answer your questions and continue the discussion. Threads aren't interesting if nobody disagrees with each other, the whole point of debating things is to make a case for your views, so don't feel worried about doing it. I like debating things

Haha I apologize for apologizing! I just find myself in religious debates often in school with my peers and it's hard to argue my side without knowing the other side as well

Of course I was raised in an environment that is quite different from many people in this thread and I have absolutely no understanding of atheism

I find it hypocritical of myself to say that I respect other peoples choices and yet I don't fully understand them

Thank you for sharing your beliefs, I need all the explanations I can get!

[Sandwich]

Haha I apologize for apologizing! I just find myself in religious debates often in school with my peers and it's hard to argue my side without knowing the other side as well

Of course I was raised in an environment that is quite different from many people in this thread and I have absolutely no understanding of atheism

I find it hypocritical of myself to say that I respect other peoples choices and yet I don't fully understand them

Thank you for sharing your beliefs, I need all the explanations I can get!

Well as I said about the sharing the beliefs thing, I think that's quite a fundamental point - I'm not sharing any of my beliefs! The only person in the situation with beliefs would be you (and people who think the same thing as you). Atheism isn't a belief - it's not a deeply-held conviction or even really a 'thing'. It's just an absence of belief which, due to the insistence of people to make categories, has been given a name. Not believing something isn't an active state v.s. believing in something, which is.

The thing with beliefs is that the burden of proof or explanation falls on people who have the beliefs. I mean, presumably there's a reason. Like if I told you I believed in Unicorns, you'd probably ask me why. You probably don't believe in unicorns because there's no evidence they've ever existed and we would surely have seen them if they did, or found fossils or evidence of some form or another (would be your answer). That unicorns don't exist isn't a 'belief' or a view or choice. It's just an absence. The person who is convinced that unicorns roam the earth? They're the only person with any explaining to do because the problem of understanding is that person A (the non-believer) has never seen any evidence of unicorns. The only way to really talk about if unicorns exist or not is for the person who reckons they have got evidence of unicorns (person B) to explain, because the burden of evidence is on them. So what I suppose I'm really trying to say is that atheism isn't something you can have an understanding or experience of - atheism is what you would think if you stripped your beliefs away, but it's not an entity or collection of ideas. The beliefs that you have separate you from a 'normal' person who doesn't come with some pre-packaged religious beliefs on the side It's an absence, more or less.

[mollypolly190]

Haha I apologize for apologizing! I just find myself in religious debates often in school with my peers and it's hard to argue my side without knowing the other side as well

Of course I was raised in an environment that is quite different from many people in this thread and I have absolutely no understanding of atheism

I find it hypocritical of myself to say that I respect other peoples choices and yet I don't fully understand them

Thank you for sharing your beliefs, I need all the explanations I can get!

Well as I said about the sharing the beliefs thing, I think that's quite a fundamental point - I'm not sharing any of my beliefs! The only person in the situation with beliefs would be you (and people who think the same thing as you). Atheism isn't a belief - it's not a deeply-held conviction or even really a 'thing'. It's just an absence of belief which, due to the insistence of people to make categories, has been given a name. Not believing something isn't an active state v.s. believing in something, which is.

The thing with beliefs is that the burden of proof or explanation falls on people who have the beliefs. I mean, presumably there's a reason. Like if I told you I believed in Unicorns, you'd probably ask me why. You probably don't believe in unicorns because there's no evidence they've ever existed and we would surely have seen them if they did, or found fossils or evidence of some form or another (would be your answer). That unicorns don't exist isn't a 'belief' or a view or choice. It's just an absence. The person who is convinced that unicorns roam the earth? They're the only person with any explaining to do because the problem of understanding is that person A (the non-believer) has never seen any evidence of unicorns. The only way to really talk about if unicorns exist or not is for the person who reckons they have got evidence of unicorns (person B) to explain, because the burden of evidence is on them. So what I suppose I'm really trying to say is that atheism isn't something you can have an understanding or experience of - atheism is what you would think if you stripped your beliefs away, but it's not an entity or collection of ideas. The beliefs that you have separate you from a 'normal' person who doesn't come with some pre-packaged religious beliefs on the side It's an absence, more or less.

Thank you so much for this clarification! I have never heard anyone describe it as vividly or accurately as you just did

[citizenoftheuniverse]

If you are really interested in why people don't believe, there is an excellant Youtube series called "Why I am no longer a Christian" by a youtuber called Evid3nc3. It is really long, but I personally found it really interesting. There are several other atheist Youtubers that you could watch as well, such as TheAmazingAthiest, who however can be kinda crude at times so maybe not the best to start with, AngieAntiThiest, gogreen18, thunderf00t etc. That should be plenty for you to watch and learn from XP. thunderf00t and TheAmazingAthiest might be offensive at times though so maybe you should look at the other ones first.

[Award Winning Boss]

If you are really interested in why people don't believe, there is an excellant Youtube series called "Why I am no longer a Christian" by a youtuber called Evid3nc3. It is really long, but I personally found it really interesting. There are several other atheist Youtubers that you could watch as well, such as TheAmazingAthiest, who however can be kinda crude at times so maybe not the best to start with, AngieAntiThiest, gogreen18, thunderf00t etc. That should be plenty for you to watch and learn from XP. thunderf00t and TheAmazingAthiest might be offensive at times though so maybe you should look at the other ones first.

Evid3nc3, theramintrees and Qualia soup are probably the best. And the non stamp collector.