USA vs GERMANY

[Black Bird Lockheed]

Hi Friends,

Myself and my friend were discussing that which countries are more humanitarian in nature. I am supporting Germany and he is supporting USA. He argued that Nazi Germany killed 6 million Jews ( I believe that it is the fault of Nazi Party and not the fault of German public). I argued back that USA dropped atom bomb on Japan and people are still suffering from its after effects. Now my friend is constantly arguing that Germany's act on Jews were unjustified ( which I agree) but he said that USA did the right thing becoz Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor. But after WW2 Germany had adopted many humanitarian laws such as abolishing death penalty, torture by police etc whereas USA did not adopt these above measures.

So friends which country you support USA or Germany?

Edited March 27, 2013 by akash jishnu

[Sandwich]

I dunno about in WW2 - both countries committed some serious human atrocities - but if you're looking at nowadays I would say Germany has a more humanitarian attitude.

They have almost gone the other way and become hypersensitive about the history relating to the Nazi era. In my opinion the Germans have taken the atrocities of that time as a huge scar on the national conscience, whereas the national guilt for the atomic bombs dropped on Nagasaki and Hiroshima is pretty much zilch in the US. I don't think there's such a thing as national guilt in the US who I would say remain relatively gung-ho. The Germans have a significantly better recent record of not bombing people they disagree with as well. They also have an excellent welfare state which ensures that all citizens are protected and given fundamental rights such as access to healthcare and so on, which the US doesn't. The US also cheerfully contravenes international laws on human rights, for instance by holding prisoners for undefined periods of time without trial such as at Guantanamo Bay, despite promises by the Obama administration that this would be closed. Not only that but they engage in practices to extract information from prisoners which are considered unlawful torture, for instance waterboarding. They also have the death penalty, which the Germans abolished for good in the 1980's. And the Germans have meaningful gun licensing whilst the Americans do not.

It's a bit of a weird question and it really depends on what you take into consideration, but IMO the more 'human friendly' place that promotes equality, human rights and frowns more on torture, murder and so on is in the modern day almost certainly Germany.

[Black Bird Lockheed]

I dunno about in WW2 - both countries committed some serious human atrocities - but if you're looking at nowadays I would say Germany has a more humanitarian attitude.

They have almost gone the other way and become hypersensitive about the history relating to the Nazi era. In my opinion the Germans have taken the atrocities of that time as a huge scar on the national conscience, whereas the national guilt for the atomic bombs dropped on Nagasaki and Hiroshima is pretty much zilch in the US. I don't think there's such a thing as national guilt in the US who I would say remain relatively gung-ho. The Germans have a significantly better recent record of not bombing people they disagree with as well. They also have an excellent welfare state which ensures that all citizens are protected and given fundamental rights such as access to healthcare and so on, which the US doesn't. The US also cheerfully contravenes international laws on human rights, for instance by holding prisoners for undefined periods of time without trial such as at Guantanamo Bay, despite promises by the Obama administration that this would be closed. Not only that but they engage in practices to extract information from prisoners which are considered unlawful torture, for instance waterboarding. They also have the death penalty, which the Germans abolished for good in the 1980's. And the Germans have meaningful gun licensing with the Americans do not.

It's a bit of a weird question and it really depends on what you take into consideration, but IMO the more 'human friendly' place that promotes equality, human rights and frowns more on torture, murder and so on is in the modern day almost certainly Germany.

I completely agree with you sandwich (sorry friend i really don't know your name) that till to date USA is very liberal on issuing licenses to the guns. Since USA is a major super power today every country bows before it. I feel that apart from strong economics growth USA must abolish death penalty,torture etc and should stop issuing guns etc. Even street gangs in USA is very dangerous for the general public.

[Luka Petrovic]

I abstain because there is no ability to vote that they are equal. Both have committed atrocities and made human rights violations in the past, relatively recently and today. The arguments about death penalty, etc are more so politically oriented that anything else... So I'm mostly measuring with meddling in foreign wars and ethnic cleansing type stuff.

[theboro76]

I think the key point to remember is that the question is set in the present tense (i.e. "are" rather than "were"). If we consider WWII, it would be a close one, I think the Germans would lose though, due to the fact that 'they started it'. (Although this is debatable, based on how history presents it.)

Considering the present, Germany would definately be better for humanitarianness (if thats a word). The amount of lives that the States have cost due to pointless wars (Vietnam (dont forget the ruthless effects of that to the bystanders Lao and Cambodia), Iraq, Afganistan, ect.) I would have to say Germany have learnt from their mistakes, where as the US continues to make the sam ones over and over. All under the name of capitalism and democracy (and oil, but we don't mention that one). It's nice to believe that our system is the best in the world, but is capitalism that much better than the status quo, when it takes 10 or more years of war to reach. Especially in cases like Viet Nam when it didn't even get achieved.

[Luka Petrovic]

^ I kind of disagree about what you said about Germany after world war II. Although they didn't participate in Vietnam as a part of NATO they have been a part of Afghanistan, though not as much. Also they were key in arming and training the croatian forces in the Balkan wars/ yugoslav civii war of the 1990's. Its role isn't as prominent, but if you dig, its there.

[theboro76]

^ I kind of disagree about what you said about Germany after world war II. Although they didn't participate in Vietnam as a part of NATO they have been a part of Afghanistan, though not as much. Also they were key in arming and training the croatian forces in the Balkan wars/ yugoslav civii war of the 1990's. Its role isn't as prominent, but if you dig, its there.

I didn't realise they were involved. I've had a look and they are, although definately not to the extent that the US are.

I didn't realise the death tolls in the other two wars were as large as they were. However, they are much smaller than the potential max death toll of Vietnam.

[~Lc~]

Are we allowed to place other options? I would say Finland to be honest, they provide government grants for anyone who goes on unpaid internship programmes with the UN!

[Black Bird Lockheed]

Are we allowed to place other options? I would say Finland to be honest, they provide government grants for anyone who goes on unpaid internship programmes with the UN!

You can bring other counties into picture but I brought Germany because that country has the potential to become a super power one day

[Miccol]

As an American, I vote Germany, and no i am not unpatriotic simply realistic.

[~Lc~]

Are we allowed to place other options? I would say Finland to be honest, they provide government grants for anyone who goes on unpaid internship programmes with the UN!

You can bring other counties into picture but I brought Germany because that country has the potential to become a super power one day

Well what are you defining as a super power? Don't Germany already have nuclear weapons, hence they're already a super power?

I think Americans meddle a little bit to much in foreign politics for my liking. The Germans do as well, but unfortunately to them it seems that they're Europe's cash machine at the moment.

[Miccol]

Oh if we can bring other countries in I vote Norway, from what I read... what a good time

[Black Bird Lockheed]

Are we allowed to place other options? I would say Finland to be honest, they provide government grants for anyone who goes on unpaid internship programmes with the UN!

You can bring other counties into picture but I brought Germany because that country has the potential to become a super power one day

Well what are you defining as a super power? Don't Germany already have nuclear weapons, hence they're already a super power?

I think Americans meddle a little bit to much in foreign politics for my liking. The Germans do as well, but unfortunately to them it seems that they're Europe's cash machine at the moment.

Germany does have nuclear weapons but it only uses it only for NATO. Otherwise it doesn't use for its own defense (which I find is unsafe). And second thing Germany is a home to many global brands like Mercedes, Audi, Addidas, Puma, Bayer AG etc. These goods are well demanded by other countries and I don't think that Germany is using foul ways to earn the money.

[Black Bird Lockheed]

Oh if we can bring other countries in I vote Norway, from what I read... what a good time

Bring it on, but now you are the lawyer now, so defend Norway and you must be ready to accept a volley of questions

Edited April 5, 2013 by akash jishnu

[~Lc~]

Are we allowed to place other options? I would say Finland to be honest, they provide government grants for anyone who goes on unpaid internship programmes with the UN!

You can bring other counties into picture but I brought Germany because that country has the potential to become a super power one day

Well what are you defining as a super power? Don't Germany already have nuclear weapons, hence they're already a super power?

I think Americans meddle a little bit to much in foreign politics for my liking. The Germans do as well, but unfortunately to them it seems that they're Europe's cash machine at the moment.

Germany does have nuclear weapons but it only uses it only for NATO. Otherwise it doesn't use for its own defense (which I find is unsafe). And second thing Germany is a home to many global brands like Mercedes, Audi, Addidas, Puma, Bayer AG etc. These goods are well demanded by other countries and I don't think that Germany is using foul ways to earn the money.

Arguably no one is really "using" nuclear weapons for defense, surely it's an offensive little toy for one thing, the other there is a worldly condemnation for its use, hence why most people aren't taking North Korea seriously at the moment.

My question was more along the lines of what is the criteria you are using to determine what a super power constitutes?

Otherwise, I don't quite understand where the point about having good industry has to do with anything...

Finally, I don't even know what I'm discussing here. We seem to be throwing facts at each other with no point to make...

[Black Bird Lockheed]

Are we allowed to place other options? I would say Finland to be honest, they provide government grants for anyone who goes on unpaid internship programmes with the UN!

You can bring other counties into picture but I brought Germany because that country has the potential to become a super power one day

Well what are you defining as a super power? Don't Germany already have nuclear weapons, hence they're already a super power?

I think Americans meddle a little bit to much in foreign politics for my liking. The Germans do as well, but unfortunately to them it seems that they're Europe's cash machine at the moment.

Germany does have nuclear weapons but it only uses it only for NATO. Otherwise it doesn't use for its own defense (which I find is unsafe). And second thing Germany is a home to many global brands like Mercedes, Audi, Addidas, Puma, Bayer AG etc. These goods are well demanded by other countries and I don't think that Germany is using foul ways to earn the money.

Arguably no one is really "using" nuclear weapons for defense, surely it's an offensive little toy for one thing, the other there is a worldly condemnation for its use, hence why most people aren't taking North Korea seriously at the moment.

My question was more along the lines of what is the criteria you are using to determine what a super power constitutes?

Otherwise, I don't quite understand where the point about having good industry has to do with anything...

Finally, I don't even know what I'm discussing here. We seem to be throwing facts at each other with no point to make...

A super power must have four criteria. One is military, second is economic growth, third is world influence and politics and fourth is culture. Germany ranks 7 th in the world of the military power. It has the highest GDP (3.57 trillion $ ) in Europe. Germany is the highest contributor in EU budget and hence Germany has strong influence in Europe. Germany is one of the highest contributor United Nations. Have strong trade ties with many countries. Germany is in G4 Nations which are trying to get Permanent seat in Security Council. Germany is also bailing out Greece. Maintains a friendly relations with many countries. Such countries are bound to be super power one day or the other.

(PS) I think Germany won't be given the title of super power individualiy but EU would be given titular super power)

[~Lc~]

A super power must have four criteria. One is military, second is economic growth, third is world influence and politics and fourth is culture. Germany ranks 7 th in the world of the military power. It has the highest GDP (3.57 trillion $ ) in Europe. Germany is the highest contributor in EU budget and hence Germany has strong influence in Europe. Germany is one of the highest contributor United Nations. Have strong trade ties with many countries. Germany is in G4 Nations which are trying to get Permanent seat in Security Council. Germany is also bailing out Greece. Maintains a friendly relations with many countries. Such countries are bound to be super power one day or the other.

(PS) I think Germany won't be given the title of super power individualiy but EU would be given titular super power)

Excellent, so being ranked 7th is not enough to be announced a super power? How many are there allowed to be?

Otherwise, how do you link being humanitarian with being a super power? The one link I'm thinking of is the fact that they will one day to have credibility to meddle in other countries like the US did in Vietnam, Iraq etc. Is that the point we're getting at?

[Black Bird Lockheed]

A super power must have four criteria. One is military, second is economic growth, third is world influence and politics and fourth is culture. Germany ranks 7 th in the world of the military power. It has the highest GDP (3.57 trillion $ ) in Europe. Germany is the highest contributor in EU budget and hence Germany has strong influence in Europe. Germany is one of the highest contributor United Nations. Have strong trade ties with many countries. Germany is in G4 Nations which are trying to get Permanent seat in Security Council. Germany is also bailing out Greece. Maintains a friendly relations with many countries. Such countries are bound to be super power one day or the other.

(PS) I think Germany won't be given the title of super power individualiy but EU would be given titular super power)

Excellent, so being ranked 7th is not enough to be announced a super power? How many are there allowed to be?hat super powers have tec

Otherwise, how do you link being humanitarian with being a super power? The one link I'm thinking of is the fact that they will one day to have credibility to meddle in other countries like the US did in Vietnam, Iraq etc. Is that the point we're getting at?

I think in way you are right, super powers have tendencies to meddle in all countries affairs and to declare war against small enemy countries. But I still don't the situation whether is it Germany would be solely declared super power or EU. As a super power you will only declare war ( for own interest) but Germany as far as I know has no enmity with anyone unlike United States. So chances of bullying other countries are low. And even if Germany does commit some atrocities, EU will interfere. And please don't compare USA with Germany, because USA have enemies ( which you are absolutely saying right. US might harass these countries through fair and foul means while Germany have almost none.) Plus Germany bans death penalty, torture etc while USA did not banned.

Edited April 6, 2013 by akash jishnu

[Luka Petrovic]

Its all really a matter of perspective. Some might say Germany is being rather cruel, using the EU as a post colonial reconstruction of pre-WWI Europe, Germany being the leader of many smaller nations. I'm not sure how many of you are familiar with the EU, but the smaller nations whose development is supposed to be helped, Bulgaria, Romania, Poland, essentially any country that isn't Central or Western Europe is being drained economically and directed politically by Germany. Talk about independence... They sold them this , and never let it play out the way they said it would. Politics, go figure!

Edited April 6, 2013 by Luka Petrovic

[Sandwich]

Its all really a matter of perspective. Some might say Germany is being rather cruel, using the EU as a post colonial reconstruction of pre-WWI Europe, Germany being the leader of many smaller nations. I'm not sure how many of you are familiar with the EU, but the smaller nations whose development is supposed to be helped, Bulgaria, Romania, Poland, essentially any country that isn't Central or Western Europe is being drained economically and directed politically by Germany. Talk about independence... They sold them this , and never let it play out the way they said it would. Politics, go figure!

I'm interested to hear the reasons behind your argument! Please explain