Calculus Based Physics?

[Andy Sebastian]

Does the IB program have any plans to institute a calculus based physics class, rather than the algebra based ones they retain at the moment?

 

I'm not trying to sound snobby, but there are some people that would argue the IB program's physics cirriculum is too superficial to count for university credits.  It essentially hands you a bunch of oversimplified formulas without deriving them, and glosses over a few very elementary concepts before throwing you exams that basically involve plugging and chugging what to you are just arbitrary algebra equations.  Now, of course, I'm using "superficial", "oversimplified" and "elementary" in a relative context - relative to AP and university physics.  Some students may have no desire to pursue STEM careers after graduation, a decision well within their rights, but for those that do, it would make sense for IB to provide a physics class vaguely preparatory for college.  Most students walk into IB physics having either having already taken or being in the process of taking AB or BC calculus, so it is not they wouldn't be able to handle a calculus based physics course. 

 

Many IB alumni praise its English program for making university english easy for them.  HL Math covers various college level topics such as multivariable calculus and number theory.  Nobody praises HL physics for preparing them for a university STEM major.  Why is it, that IB physics is regulated to the level of an advanced high school course?  We provide different levels of math for students of different inclinations, so why not do the same for physics?  AP does it. 

 

/rant

[elaifyanre]

HL math doesn't teach you multivariable calculus.

I don't think (at least most) universities would require you to know calculus based physics.

Yes, IB isn't that advanced, and it does no harm to learn some more advanced stuff on yourself/through AP or other systems, but it's not like the other subjects are THAT advanced (in comparison to physics) either.

[Andy Sebastian]

HL math doesn't teach you multivariable calculus.

 

Technically it covers basic topics such as 3D vectors and planes.  Correct me if I am mistaken, but the "HL math" cirriculum as a whole covers everything from analysis and functions through calculus to those courses covered in the namesake class, thus preparing students for Calc I and II.  IB physics, on the other hand, sufficiently covers no university physics courses of significance.

 

 

I don't think (at least most) universities would require you to know calculus based physics.

 

Well, the idea was for those who wanted to enter STEM majors that will involve calculus based physics.  College Board offers AP physics C exams, yet there is strangely no IB equivalent.

 

 

Yes, IB isn't that advanced, and it does no harm to learn some more advanced stuff on yourself/through AP or other systems, but it's not like the other subjects are THAT advanced (in comparison to physics) either.

 

My confusion stems from the fact that physics is the one cirriculum in IB that does not even remotely prepare you for analogous university level instruction, despite the fact that a calculus based physics course would be well within the abilities of those IB students who take calculus, as most do. 

Edited July 3, 2014 by Andy Sebastian

[ctrls]

The problem is that the IB designs the physics course so that a maths studies student can also take the subject. While I also don't like the complete lack of calculus, I think it's fair that a student interested in physics can study it regardless of their mathematical ability - which is why there are a lot of qualitative topics.

I don't think the oversimplification makes it easy though, the maths was never intended to be the hard part - in my opinion anyway. I can't really compare with other systems since I haven't taken them, but my experience was that the questions are designed so that you fully understand the topics and that was never an easy task for me. Overall I don't think the subject needs to be harder, especially not the mathematical aspects.

Also, while I don't intend on studying physics at university so I don't fully know what it consists of, but I would guess the prepreation of the IB is adequate for most places. Naturally you will need to learn the maths and all, but otherwise the basic concepts are covered well and you would be decently prepared with a qualitative understanding of the all topics. Having self-studies a bit of calculus-based mechanics, it's not that difficult to replace the ∆ signs with d's and apply scalar formulas to a vector setting.

It's not to say I don't want any calculus-based physics, but I don't think its necessary as part of the HL physics course. A better solution in my opinion would like a physics related option for HL maths, a little like the mechanics modules in the A-level system. It's a lot more appropriate in this context because it tests mathematical ability, building up on the concepts taught in phsics (which I really hpe they do).

Technically it covers basic topics such as 3D vectors and planes.  Correct me if I am mistaken, but the "HL math" cirriculum as a whole covers everything from analysis and functions through calculus to those courses covered in the namesake class, thus preparing students for Calc I and II.  IB physics, on the other hand, sufficiently covers no university physics courses of significance.

The vectors section doesn't involve any calculus - it's only the study of vector calculus that covers multi variable calculus, which is beyond the scope of the syllabus. There's also no analysis either, though some basic ideas from the topic are given a non-rigiurus treatment.

[elaifyanre]

The problem is that the IB designs the physics course so that a maths studies student can also take the subject. While I also don't like the complete lack of calculus, I think it's fair that a student interested in physics can study it regardless of their mathematical ability - which is why there are a lot of qualitative topics.

 

Yes, I think that's why.

As ctrls said, vectors is not multivariable calculus, vector calculus is multivariable calculus. If you assume the former, then you could also say that a 9th grade course that introduces students of Cartesian coordinate system introduces them to calculus.

Again, as I said, universities usually don't require you to know calculus based physics, although it'd be nice to know some. Universities do give transfer credit for HLs, but they are (usually) smart enough to give you credit for the corresponding course (eg. introductory calculus and before that for math HL, non-calculus based physics for physics HL) instead of the one they think you know which might lead you to confusion later.

↑According to my (limited) research during my attempt to apply to US universities I learned that most of them do have such "not-so-AP" courses. As for UK universities, they assume the A-level syllabus knowledge which is different from IB. Sometimes you do have to learn additional stuff to cope with the difference in syllabi, but then IB isn't some kind of 3rd year university course that's more advanced than any other course (so for some areas you know more, while for others you don't).

Edited July 3, 2014 by ssy

[Andy Sebastian]

The problem is that the IB designs the physics course so that a maths studies student can also take the subject. While I also don't like the complete lack of calculus, I think it's fair that a student interested in physics can study it regardless of their mathematical ability - which is why there are a lot of qualitative topics.

 

 

 

What if they offered several levels of physics for students depending on their interest level in the subject, ala IB math?

 

The vectors section doesn't involve any calculus - it's only the study of vector calculus that covers multi variable calculus, which is beyond the scope of the syllabus. There's also no analysis either, though some basic ideas from the topic are given a non-rigiurus treatment.

 

3D planes and vectors are typically covered in a multivariable calculus course.  See this, for example:

 

http://www2.math.umd.edu/~okoudjou/241praexam1.pdf

[yii yann]

It's not to say I don't want any calculus-based physics, but I don't think its necessary as part of the HL physics course. A better solution in my opinion would like a physics related option for HL maths, a little like the mechanics modules in the A-level system. It's a lot more appropriate in this context because it tests mathematical ability, building up on the concepts taught in phsics (which I really hpe they do).

 

 

This sounds like a great idea! Or perhaps you can make it a HL Physics option, instead of a HL math option. That way you're not being unfair to math students by giving them an option that at least some can't do. 

[Emmi]

 

3D planes and vectors are typically covered in a multivariable calculus course.  See this, for example:

 

http://www2.math.umd.edu/~okoudjou/241praexam1.pdf

 

Yes, but they're not vector calculus. They're vectors of course, but it's not vector calculus. It's more of simple plane geometry. In a vector calculus class you're expected to understand and apply this kind of thing (this was my least favorite part of the vector calculus part of my math courses):

 

[Ossih]

Personally I love the idea. I do HL Physics and I compare everything I do to calculus because it makes concepts so much simpler. Plus, IB Physics sorta has some sort of 'calculus intuition' if you get what Im going at, like the interpretation of areas under a graph or the tangents to a graph. I learnt in terms of Calculus, it helps especially in some topics, such as Topic 9 when you learn g = -∆V/∆x which is actually -dV/dx. It has applications to practically every topic. But I've looked at AP Physics C, some of their papers, and they lose their physics to maths. I guess neither system's focuses is perfect, but of course every student is going to be different. I do wish though they did have a calculus option. 

 

As for the ongoing debate about Math HL, lol no there's no multivariable calculus involved. Vectors and planes are prerequisites for multivariable calculus, and for vector calculus. Then again, even AP Calc BC doesn't cover multivariable, and covers (very) limited vector calculus, which IB students learn implicitly (differentiation joke? No? I tried). I don't think an option would be enough though, cause calculus is present in practically every core topic (besides core Thermal Physics, core Electric Circuits) and in most AHL topics, maybe not so much in options. AP may have more advanced stuff, but I really think IB tests your learning. AP is hard I guess, but also predictable. Some would argue the IB is too but it has its tricks here and there. 

[Andy Sebastian]

Yes, but they're not vector calculus.

 

Sorry, I think this is just a confusion of semantics.  Vectors and planes are taught in your standard multivariable calculus, even if they are themselves technically not calculus operations.  I should have said "multivariable class", not just "multvariable" the field.

 

In a vector calculus class you're expected to understand and apply this kind of thing (this was my least favorite part of the vector calculus part of my math courses):

 

hehe...in our class, the average grade on that exam was a 55%.