Is my school's uniform policy sexist?

[Emilia1320]

well, do we have equality yet? No. So should we be chivalrous? yes.

 

and anyways, lets say someone spoke to your mom/sister/cousin/female friend/girlfriend by attacking her beliefs, would you like that?

 

thats what I'm saying.

I believe we should be chivalrous, everyone should. Even if it is holding the door open for a lady or telling your friends to have a nice day. My opinion.

Fun event, my male classmate took it as offense when I held door open for him, because he was carrying 3 big IB books. (I'm girl)

I'm all for equality but some male individuals don't seem to even want it.

[ThePotnoodleBoy]

 

 

well, do we have equality yet? No. So should we be chivalrous? yes.

 

and anyways, lets say someone spoke to your mom/sister/cousin/female friend/girlfriend by attacking her beliefs, would you like that?

 

thats what I'm saying.

I believe we should be chivalrous, everyone should. Even if it is holding the door open for a lady or telling your friends to have a nice day. My opinion.

Fun event, my male classmate took it as offense when I held door open for him, because he was carrying 3 big IB books. (I'm girl)

I'm all for equality but some male individuals don't seem to even want it.

 

That's very weird... I feel very appreciative when a lady holds a door open for me. 

Perhaps, be a bad girl and don't open the door for him. Equality, right?

[Emilia1320]

well, do we have equality yet? No. So should we be chivalrous? yes.

 

and anyways, lets say someone spoke to your mom/sister/cousin/female friend/girlfriend by attacking her beliefs, would you like that?

 

thats what I'm saying.

I believe we should be chivalrous, everyone should. Even if it is holding the door open for a lady or telling your friends to have a nice day. My opinion.

Fun event, my male classmate took it as offense when I held door open for him, because he was carrying 3 big IB books. (I'm girl)

I'm all for equality but some male individuals don't seem to even want it.

That's very weird... I feel very appreciative when a lady holds a door open for me. 

Perhaps, be a bad girl and don't open the door for him. Equality, right?

Appearly he felt I don't picture him manly enough to open a door by himself. Ridiculous but what can I do. I just tried to be nice and failed to do so.

[ThePotnoodleBoy]

 

 

 

 

well, do we have equality yet? No. So should we be chivalrous? yes.

 

and anyways, lets say someone spoke to your mom/sister/cousin/female friend/girlfriend by attacking her beliefs, would you like that?

 

thats what I'm saying.

I believe we should be chivalrous, everyone should. Even if it is holding the door open for a lady or telling your friends to have a nice day. My opinion.

Fun event, my male classmate took it as offense when I held door open for him, because he was carrying 3 big IB books. (I'm girl)

I'm all for equality but some male individuals don't seem to even want it.

That's very weird... I feel very appreciative when a lady holds a door open for me. 

Perhaps, be a bad girl and don't open the door for him. Equality, right?

Appearly he felt I don't picture him manly enough to open a door by himself. Ridiculous but what can I do. I just tried to be nice and failed to do so.

 

It sounds like he is stuck in the fifties... Stay away from him! Not all men are like this though, I myself try to appreciate anything anyone does for me... including help with my homework. 

[King112]

truth be told

i wouldnt like it if someone attacked anyone close to me of either sex, not only female

There you go, so do you have the right to really attack someone else?

QED, my point is proven.

[Quintessential]

 

 

I completely agree with the bolded part. She began with explaining how long 10cm is, presuming, for some reason, that he didn't how long that was, even though he had just made a post about that exact thing. Then being extremely sarcastic and following that up with a "this might be a hard one for you to understand, but...".

 

I'm really not a fan of people using master suppression techniques while debating.

 

 

aw dang!! you didn't like my argument?!?!? whatever am i going to do now??? I truly did write it for your satisfaction :/ what a bummer

 

I didn't say that I didn't like your argument, but for your information: I didn't. I said I didn't like the way you presented it.

Edited July 22, 2015 by Quintessential

[Excalibre]

 

 

 

​

Whoa! Whoa! Why the hell should you be allowed to wear whatever the *bleep* you want in a public place? (As mac117 also pointed out.) I would NOT want to go to a place where people's clothes (or a lack thereof) will cause me and my (hypothetical) children to sustain emotional/mental harm. (Don't tell me it's acceptable for children to be exposed to nudity, just don't.)

Why is it not perfectly acceptable to have a dress code in public places? The only thing I agree to is that the guidelines should be equally fair for people of both sexes. But there should always be some degree of appropriateness as per societal norms.

As for women's legs being over-sexualized, that really is an issue for society as a whole. But blatantly breaking the guidelines is not going to be the most effective way to reforms. It has been proven time and time again, that diplomacy can work, so why not take that route.

 

On a side note, I sure has hell hope you're not a feminist. Because if there's anything your posts have done, it's make me hate the way you converse with people. And till now, most of the feminists I've met have done the same. Just saying, this isn't the best way to win support for your cause (REGARDLESS of whether you're a feminist or not).

 

 

tbh the likeliness something someone is wearing will cause you to sustain any sort of harm is incredibly ridiculous lol. If you honestly think seeing the bottom half of a girls thigh will cause you harm then wow seek help buddy

 

why would i tell you it's acceptable for children to be exposed to nudity? literally why? that doesn't answer OP's question and i don't think i spoke about that in my argument so...?

 

See that thing I did earlier, like about arguing for women's rights, trying to show that women and men are equal? yeah, if you look at the definition of feminism, you will find my actions and the definition are very much in line. 

And even if you don't like how I argue something, I ask that you don't hate feminism because of me. You're more than welcome to hate me, that would totally be cool, but feminism is not a bad thing and you shouldn't hate it because of me.

 

 

You just like to jump completely off the bat, don't you? There's a reason I mentioned children (although, they were hypothetical in nature). Children should not be exposed to public indecency, that was the main point of my statement. Even though there hasn't been any research on the direct consequences of indecent exposure, many other studies have touched on the topic. The findings have shown that indecent exposure in public places has an adverse effect on the moral values of the youth in the community.

Now, since school is a public place, it should have an appropriate dress code. Obviously, like I said before, the guidelines should be equally fair for both sexes! 

 

Now as to why I would ask you not to tell me that is simply because I thought you would. I mean unless you're not sure of your own arguments, I'd say giving people the freedom to wear anything they want will allow them to not wear anything at all either. And since the original setting of this argument is a school, where children are allowed to attend (or at least in all the countries I've visited), your argument does encompass this type of scenario. 

 

I know that some of your arguments are in line with that of feminism. I wouldn't have mentioned it otherwise.

Now, as for hating things go, I tend to get caught up in the moment. And that often results in me getting a little carried away. I now realize that I shouldn't have said that, I apologize profusely. 'Twas not my intention to be so hateful.

[Excalibre]

​There are doing it because they want to.

 

• they
• are
• doing
• it
• because
• they
• want
• to

no one (e.g. school/government/person) should be

On a side note, I sure has hell hope you're not a feminist. Because if there's anything your posts have done, it's make me hate the way you converse with people. And till now, most of the feminists I've met have done the same. Just saying, this isn't the best way to win support for your cause (REGARDLESS of whether you're a feminist or not).

Hey hey. Mate your way out of line. If you actually have seen ibprincess's posts, she has not been impolite. Next whether she believes in feminism or not is her choice and you have no right to bring that up. I believe in feminism as I think women have been oppressed and deserve equality. I don't think I fit your definition of being rude and stuff. Next you really need to chill a bit. Haven't you heard of chivalry? She is a girl and deserves respect so please ease off. And whether or not you believe in chivalry, all humans are entitles to their beliefs and we should respect them. So I suggest easing off a bit, OK.

Have a nice day.

King112

 

 

Hey, hey. I'm out of my line? You do know right that I'm not the only one who has pointed her out for her method of communication. I think if anyone should be doing some reading, it's you.

 

Second, Feminism is a movement. Or it should be anyway. Because simply believing something won't change the world, there needs to be some action taken to support the belief. Take the Civil Rights MOVEMENT for example, lots of hard work and sacrifice based on a common belief. And that "mate," is why I thought I could bring it up, because I thought it (feminism) wasn't a belief. (There are no restrictions against speaking about movements. In fact since we're talking about equality, I should essentially have the right to bring up beliefs. But since that isn't a universal right at the moment (need I mention the Middle East), I won't bring it up anymore.)

 

Third, I've never met you before. So for the sake of humanity, read properly before you make any half-***ed remarks. 

 

Pen-ultimately, I'd be chill if you didn't make it your mission to argue against every single thing I said, without reading the rest of the thread. Had you done that, you'd see that half of your remarks would be wrong.

 

And finally, chivalry is what you bring up when it's a thread on equality? As for me being chill, I can't do that when I'm arguing/debating, that's just me. You should be a little more accepting of other people, "mate." Besides, I'm not cursing at anybody and I'm not attacking them personally (save the feminist bit, I apologize for that). Not to mention the fact that your reasoning is based on her being a girl. How ironic, "mate." 

And I never brought up beliefs, so don't be so presumptuous next time. Like I mentioned before, Feminism is a movement as far as I can tell. The belief is gender equality. Obviously, as a feminist, you can argue otherwise, and in that case I have already apologized to ibprincess. 

 

So I too would suggest easing off a bit, okay?

 

Cheers.

[is nice no?]

Yeah, normally I don't feel a need to step in on issues like this as I'm no real expert on gender oriented issues, but this one got me fuming. See where I go to school in the states we're allowed to express ourselves and our unique identity through dress in a bit of a "responsibility vs freedom" system- where you're given the freedom to self expression so long as you don't come off as obscene or offensive y'know. I feel like the entire idea that skirt length is stringently measured to the centimeter to be ridiculous and really detracts from the like main reason people go to schools - to learn. Why the hell isnt it okay to be wearing your uniform at a length you feel comfortable with anyway??

 

BTW, new to the forums some pointers would be awesum!!!

 

 

[mac117]

 

 

 

 you are doing it because you are comfortable wearing something like that. 

 

 

and also, why would it be anyones business if a person comes to school in a bikini? i understand it is revealing, but when guys wear tight pants and you can see the impression of their genitals, or when its cold and you can see the impression of a girls nipples, those things should not be your business. just because you see something does not make it immediately your business. 

 

what i was trying to say was you do you and don't let others stop you. of course there is still progress that needs to be done for people to actually, realistically wear whatever they want without being judged and without people being offended, but until then, why not fight to be able to show the area 10cm above your knee, or to be able to wear crop tops or sleeveless tops or whatever?

 

 

I feel like this topic is kind of a grey area. But again, parts of what you said are true, yet I can't totally agree.

 

You can be comfortable with your body, and I applaude you for that. I think it's necesssary to be comfortable with your own skin, and you should totally embrace it. But not in a way that would make others uncomforable.

 

And wearing bikini to school would be other's business too. It is a learning facultitity, and you should dress appropriately. Just because you feel like wearing a bikini to school doesn't mean you should. We live in a society and you should also think about others. Let's forget the fact that it would be clearly ridiculous to show up 90% naked, but let's focus on the "freedom to express yourself".

 

My school counsellor said it nicely "Of course, it is very important to express yourself. But people should remeber that we are living in a society, and we should think about other people who could be offended by it. You can express yourself in your private place, but in public places there are certain rules everyone should follow. No matter if gay, straight, girl or boy." (Or something along those lines.)

 

You seem to fail to see that just because you can that you should. Because let's face it, that could apply not only to wearing clothes. I can murder someone, but I shouldn't. Our society is telling us that it's wrong, and most of us are obeying this rule, because otherwise no one would be safe. And it's the same thing with very revealing clothes. Sex would become more and more casual, and everything would be oversexualised (which, from what I understood, is the opposite of what you want). I understand that it's also the society's fault for oversexualising women, but if they wear very revealing clothes, they'll still be oversexualised, if not even more. This can apply to men as well.

 

 

For the "just because you see something doesn't mean it's your business." I think you should think that through again. Let's take another situation, for example: a lady is being robbed and you SEE the robber. But according to your statement we shouldn't look and react because it's not of our business; I mean technically it is not affecting us in a negative way, right? But we are all humans, and it's obvious we would react (at least I hope so). Wearing bikini in some public places is offensive, just like offensive language or a swastika. Yes, it's a rather strong comparison but it's still true. 

 

To be honest, I feel like the ban of clothing that is 10cm over your knee is good, but it should be also banned for men. School is school and not a fashon show. That's why I like schools with school uniforms, so that everyone is equal and there are no situations such as this one. I feel like students nowadays use school to show off their bodies and focus on their clothes more than they do on school and actual work. That's just sad.

 

 

 

but being able to show your breasts is part of a much larger societal movement to stop sexualising breasts. hypothetically, if breasts didn't have sexual connotations, we would be able to go topless. because women's breasts are sexualised, we cannot go topless.

 

 

Sadly breasts are not the only things that are being overly sexualised. And let's face it, it differs from culture to culture. In some cultures small feet are sexualised, and women have to cover them in public places at all times. 

 

And it's not only organs that are overly sexualised. Bannanas, cucumbers, eggplants - the list could go on. What you say is true, it's not good to oversexualise the breasts of only one gender, but it's our society and the change will eventually come (at least gradually).

 

 

 

no, this is not the biggest concern women have right now. but it does fall into a much larger range of human issues (sexualisation of females, **** shaming, victim blaming, in-proportionate number of men to women in governments, freedom of choice, freedom of expression, gender roles and expectations, female bodies being taboo, male privilege, cis privilege, censorship etc.). I know and recognise human issues that carry much more of significance and need to be worked on in a much more immediate way, and i promise if this post had been about any of the issues you mentioned and others, I would have still been on the side for fighting for those things. women being able to go topless falls under freedom of choice: the choice to go topless or not. That freedom of choice is the underlying problem under all that you listed and more--everyone should be able to chose who will represent them politically or chose who they want to marry, no doubt. To me, i think the way the media has caught onto women going topless through freethenipple and through celebrities such as miley cyrus who pioneer it is a good thing in that it shows the need for freedom of choice internationally.

 

 

 

I'm glad we have somewhat the same view when it comes to toplessness not being the main concern of women in this world. But I feel like making it such a dramatic thing isn't really helping them.

 

And with stars and pseudo-feminists, I have to disagree. Even if you take Miley Cyrus, you'll see yourself that she is sexualising many things including woman's body itself. I mean, let's just go down the memory line and remember the time she licked a hammer or grinded Robin Thicke. I personally think that Miley is one of the women who think that if they expose their bodies they'll do something good for women, but let's face it: media only continue to oversexualise media, and *** shaming, which you named yourself, is only getting stronger. Emma Watson is a feminist that does good things for the rights of women without oversexualising her body (or anyone's for that matter).

 

I think media play a huge role in oversexualising women (and sometimes men), and therefore it is impotant to separate people who try to actually help with people who want more attention.

Edited July 22, 2015 by mac117

[A_Happy_Monkey]

I personally don't even see the point in clothing. Think about it- exposure to an uncovered body does not do any harm. 

 

So really, it just comes down to cultural norms. And these will definitely differ between genders as men and women are, simply put, physically different. 

[IB Memes]

Hello!

 

   I'm glad you are bringing this up, I too think that the policy of school uniforms is sexist. I have always tried to bring this up to teachers, however, they think otherwise. I believe everyone should be aware of the bad, sexist uniform policy.

 

Good Luck with IB, Friend. 

[FractiousArrogance]

I guess the reason it solely specified females is because a girl's shorts can tend to be that short and it's not abnormal to see a girl wearing them. As for guys, shorts are usually no more than 5 cm above the knee. Anything shorter than that is something you can only find in specific places. To make more sense, it's not something every male would have access to.

 

Just like saying "Boys, don't stand at the toilet." This may also include women but how common is it that a woman stands when doing her business. 

 

Brainzzzz

[ibprincess]

I guess the reason it solely specified females is because a girl's shorts can tend to be that short and it's not abnormal to see a girl wearing them. As for guys, shorts are usually no more than 5 cm above the knee. Anything shorter than that is something you can only find in specific places. To make more sense, it's not something every male would have access to.

 

Just like saying "Boys, don't stand at the toilet." This may also include women but how common is it that a woman stands when doing her business. 

 

Brainzzzz

 

I really didn't want to have to come back to this conversation but i feel the need to point something out relating to what you're saying. so you're saying that men's 'short' shorts can only be found in "specific places" but like you see, do you know how hard it is to find longer length skirts or shorts for girls? like i live in australia so this may be different around the world, but it is really hard to find a skirt that sits on the knee or shorts that do not expose the thigh. it is made near impossible to find clothing that would be considered appropriate by OP's school's dress code and yea that's another problem altogether

[El :3]

Hi all, I just wanted to add in my input on the topic.

Coming from Australia as well, I can agree with what ibprincess is saying about not being able to find women's clothing below that 10cm above the knee mark - trust me, I've tried looking! And so, I can conclude that this specific guideline is unreasonable, at least, in my culture. 

 

Additionally, I do believe that dress codes exist for a reason. Do you think it's reasonable to enter the Parliament House wearing nothing but short shorts, a tank top, and thongs (flip flops for anyone outside of Australia)? Of course not - it's a place for modesty and respect, regardless of your right for freedom of expression. There's a time and a place. Similarly, when you go to your school's formal (prom), do you wear a fancy dress, or do you wear jeans and a t-shirt? As it is a formal event, there is an expectation to be dressed for the occasion, else you can be denied entry in many cases. I believe this logic applies to the school environment too. It is a professional environment, where we are the guests in the institution. We are there for learning, and so we must dress modestly for the occasion. Don't get me wrong, I am all for freedom of speech (as I've had my voice suppressed countless times), however I am aware that there is a time and a place. And school is not the place. I don't care what people wear on the weekends and outside of school, and I am all for them expressing their individuality. 

 

As to the feminist movement - I am all for equality. I am for the equality for not only women, but also for men. It is wrong to target one gender and limit what they can or can't wear, however if it applies to both genders, then there's little point for complaint. I don't agree with the sexualisation of the female body, however, I personally am not fond of the "free the nipple" movement as I am not a big fan of women's breasts, and I don't particularly want to see that. But hey, freedom of expression, and I am not restricting them from doing that, and I am happy to turn my head away if they wish to show their breasts. But don't forget to consider everyone's perspectives and opinions on the topic, not just yours. As TOK students, we are all familiar with the concept of perspective, and how different cultures have different perspectives on various issues. From my upbringing, I have been taught to be ashamed of my body, and so I do all I can to cover it up. However others may not be of the same opinion, and I respect that, just as they should respect mine. 

 

Feel free to give me your take on what I said, however this is merely my opinions, and I do not mean to offend anyone. I try to keep an open mind about everything. Sorry if I'm not making too much sense - I'm still recovering from 3 consecutive all-nighters

Edited September 7, 2015 by El :3

[harihrrnn]

no they arent, how is that sexism? i find it funny how you were able to relate those two things

do you even know how high 10 cm above the knee is?

who would want a bunch of half naked girls walking around school

 

as for the boys

if shorts go 10 cm above the knee, they shouldnt be called shorts; more like boxers or underwear

 

and pretty sure none of the men wear only underwear to school

 

maybe a cultural thing in japan...

I completely agree with you.., No parent will like to send their ward to school half naked. And no boy would like to show off his thighs to others ..

And its not called sexiest.,  the school is just trying to save its name by making students wear proper covered cloths (cloths is for covering the body not for showing it off )

Edited September 12, 2015 by harihrrnn

[ibprincess]

I completely agree with you.., No parent will like to send their ward to school half naked. And no boy would like to show off his thighs to others ..

 

 

And its not called sexiest.,  the school is just trying to save its name by making students wear proper covered cloths (cloths is for covering the body not for showing it off )

 

 

those are some quite sweeping generalisations you're doing there. 

 

for me, my parents would rather I dress how I am comfortable so that I am happy and confident rather than in a way I am uncomfortable and therefore feeling bad about my self and insecure. I hope other parents are the same because to me, it's more important to be a nice person and dress however you'd like than be a bitch wearing "appropriate" clothes. Furthermore, I can assure you there are boys who would like to show their thighs off to others. I don't really have anything else to say about that because that is such a misinformed and close-minded generalisation that I actually want to ram my head into a wall thinking there are people who believe "all boys" don't want to do that. wow

 

and by definition, yes, it is sexist. sexism is discrimination on the basis of sex. discrimination in the  case of OP's school is restricting freedom of choice and expression by limiting clothing options. the "on the basis of sex" refers to this rule only applying to one gender: females. Therefore, it is sexism. 

[HKbaby]

Yes. This is sexist.

The definition of sexism is discriminating on the basis of sex. And in this instance females are being discriminated, by having to comply to a rule, which there is no expectation that anyone else complies to. It's simply unfair.

I see this at my school too. Boys walk around in muscle tanks and no one says a thing, but if a girl wears spaghetti straps she is told to go and change immediately. I don't have a problem with uniform restrictions, I just have a problem when they are unfairly enforced among particular groups. 

[RachelDarma]

Well all I can say is that in my school, the girls only have 1 pocket whereas the boys have 4 pockets. That's 4 times as much as us. How is that fair??

[agncsw]

On 9/7/2015 at 0:43 PM, El :3 said:

Hi all, I just wanted to add in my input on the topic.

Coming from Australia as well, I can agree with what ibprincess is saying about not being able to find women's clothing below that 10cm above the knee mark - trust me, I've tried looking! And so, I can conclude that this specific guideline is unreasonable, at least, in my culture. 

 

Additionally, I do believe that dress codes exist for a reason. Do you think it's reasonable to enter the Parliament House wearing nothing but short shorts, a tank top, and thongs (flip flops for anyone outside of Australia)? Of course not - it's a place for modesty and respect, regardless of your right for freedom of expression. There's a time and a place. Similarly, when you go to your school's formal (prom), do you wear a fancy dress, or do you wear jeans and a t-shirt? As it is a formal event, there is an expectation to be dressed for the occasion, else you can be denied entry in many cases. I believe this logic applies to the school environment too. It is a professional environment, where we are the guests in the institution. We are there for learning, and so we must dress modestly for the occasion. Don't get me wrong, I am all for freedom of speech (as I've had my voice suppressed countless times), however I am aware that there is a time and a place. And school is not the place. I don't care what people wear on the weekends and outside of school, and I am all for them expressing their individuality. 

 

As to the feminist movement - I am all for equality. I am for the equality for not only women, but also for men. It is wrong to target one gender and limit what they can or can't wear, however if it applies to both genders, then there's little point for complaint. I don't agree with the sexualisation of the female body, however, I personally am not fond of the "free the nipple" movement as I am not a big fan of women's breasts, and I don't particularly want to see that. But hey, freedom of expression, and I am not restricting them from doing that, and I am happy to turn my head away if they wish to show their breasts. But don't forget to consider everyone's perspectives and opinions on the topic, not just yours. As TOK students, we are all familiar with the concept of perspective, and how different cultures have different perspectives on various issues. From my upbringing, I have been taught to be ashamed of my body, and so I do all I can to cover it up. However others may not be of the same opinion, and I respect that, just as they should respect mine. 

 

Feel free to give me your take on what I said, however this is merely my opinions, and I do not mean to offend anyone. I try to keep an open mind about everything. Sorry if I'm not making too much sense - I'm still recovering from 3 consecutive all-nighters

Amen to all of that