395 replies to this topic

[doogles]

Solaris, on Sep 23 2008, 07:45 PM, said:

GOD : 'Generator Operator Destructor'

There is nearly no evidence to support the existence of GOD.

Have you ever taken a brief glimpse at the universe?

Tell me it was randomly, spontaneously generated out of nothingness, and we just so happen to exist for no apparent reason, or purpose.

The question is not whether God exists, it's whether or not you believe it.

[TerioN.]

doogles, on Sep 29 2008, 04:16 PM, said:

Have you ever taken a brief glimpse at the universe?

Tell me it was randomly, spontaneously generated out of nothingness, and we just so happen to exist for no apparent reason, or purpose.

The question is not whether God exists, it's whether or not you believe it.

Big Bang?
But then that creates the question: What caused the Big Bang... hmm...

[Joey]

Solaris, on Sep 23 2008, 06:45 PM, said:

GOD : 'Generator Operator Destructor'

There is nearly no evidence to support the existence of GOD. But some people really claim that GOD exists, by telling that they have seen him. Unless there is strong evidence to support the statement, you cannot consider it as 'truth'. But still mass majority of people live with the blind belief that GOD exists. What do you think, does GOD exist? Or humans just do not want to accept the truth due to 'neediness', by thinking if i pray to GOD, then i will get the thing i want.

Firstly I must state that that is a terribly ugly looking introduction to a debate. Not only are you being biased but your argument is ****. What good does it  do to start a debate by completely destroying an ideology you don't believe in? Furthermore, with logically broken arguments? Anyway this is what I believe:

1) There is no absolute truth; therefore god must and must not exist and that is subjective to each and everyone.
2) Everyone's belief is to be respected; no exception
3) For me; God exists. Here is a bit of logic that maybe theorizes (notice how I don't say prove) it:

Quote

By Ryan Hemelaar

   1. Everything that has a beginning has a cause
   2. The universe had a beginning
   3. Therefore, the universe has a cause

The first premise seems obviously true as it is deeply rooted in the metaphysical intuition that something cannot come into being from nothing. To say that something can pop into being uncaused out of nothing I think is worse than magic. For at least in magic, you have the magician and maybe a hat, but here you have nothing being caused by nothing, yet coming into existence. It seems absurd.

However, some people try to object by saying, "Ah, so that means God would have to have a cause as well". Simply, no. Remember, the first premise is: "Everything that has a beginning has a cause", God never had a beginning, thus needs no cause. I'll explain later in this article why God cannot have a beginning.

Furthermore I would like to point out that if g´d didn't exist, the way our world works would not make sense. It's a hard concept to grasp but if you do reflect upon it, you might get it.

Finally, I'd like to use Mathematics as an example (seeing that I take HL Math, seems quite convenient). A Theorem, is a law that seems to describe the way something works, and is seen valid to all until proved false or untrue. For example, Pythagoras Theorem doesn't prove the relationship between the angles, but we have adopted the law of Pythagoras since it seems to justify logically a geometrical relationship and since it has not proved to be false yet, we assume it's true and correct.

Therefore I can conclude, Believing in god is a theorem (a.ka. faith), and until proved otherwise, god exists.

DISCLAIMERS: THIS POST REFLECTS THE THOUGHT OF ONE PERSON ONLY. MY THOUGHT. I URGE PEOPLE TO RESPECT MY VIEWS AS I RESPECT OTHER PEOPLE'S VIEWS AND IN NO WAYS AM I TRYING TO PROVE SOMETHING HERE. I AM SIMPLY PASSING ON MY BELIEFS AND SUBJECTIVE PERSPECTIVE ON A ISSUE.

[Referos]

doogles, on Sep 29 2008, 09:16 PM, said:

Have you ever taken a brief glimpse at the universe?

Tell me it was randomly, spontaneously generated out of nothingness, and we just so happen to exist for no apparent reason, or purpose.

The question is not whether God exists, it's whether or not you believe it.

The universe was randomly, spontaneously generated out of nothingness, and we just so happen to exist for no apparent reason, or purpose.

Frankly, I cannot possibly cope with the idea of God as a sentient being that decides what's wrong and what's right. The thought that a omnipotent being that always existed and that just arbitrarily decided at some point "Let us create the universe!" is much more complex that the universe simply creating itself (and, by the way, it was not by "chance" or "randomly"). That's why I prefer the more pantheistic view, admiring the harmony of the universe as a non-sentient entity. But this is pretty much atheism: as Carl Sagan said "it does not make much sense to pray to the law of gravity".

Edited by Referos, Oct 14, 2008 - 01:15.

[strawberrypigs]

Mr. Shiver, on Sep 23 2008, 09:14 PM, said:

I believe that some sort of divine force exists at this point in my life.

I agree, I think there are too many coincidences to believe in no supreme force at work, however I think there is too much suffering for a god. If there was a god why would he let his creations suffer and tear each other apart. Religion is a necessity in keeping order and ethics and if there was no fear of god there world might be in chaos, so in one way I think the belief of god is good enough in itself. Personally I would like to believe, but I don't.

[Desi_Dakku]

it probably started out as a thing for neediness, but religion has been misused throughout hte world.
it has created exclusiveness, and brought differnt people up against different ppl.
religion has created many problems for mankind as a whole , so the concept of God never whould have occred in history (even if there is a divine force out there)

[Cubz]

I fully one hundred percent agree
I dunno if any of you have read Richard Dawkin's The God Delusion?
Well ok yeah he is a bit of a ******, but he does make some interesting points.
While we cannot prove or disprove the existence of god or a higher being, or creator, we can work with probabilities.
I think the probability of a divine being, that came into being with no possible explainable way, that decided to create this world, a world so complex as ours, is completely like one chance in 110324987240192834709218374920831749328740912837432158736241982734691283746
Obviously you can tell that i'm 100% atheist, and have been since I was about 6.
I don't find that not believing in God leaves me without hope, or makes me act in any different ways.
To me the existence of God is in the end not a very important question for me. If he exists, fine, whatever, it doesn't change my life at all.
If we take it a step further and look at god in the context of religion it becomes a little different, but still I believe that when we die, we die and its all over. Strangely this does not worry me, only comforts me.......maybe this sounds a little emo, but the idea of there being an eternal life after this actually makes me despair. The only thing keeping me doing anything I do, including living, is knowing that one day it will end.
But in answer to the forum question, the likelihood of god existing is very low, for me anyway,

[basskidd]

However you look at it, the notion of God existing or not is completely up to you. Its like a dream - while you experience it, you know it exists. When you wake up from it, you can either choose to dismiss it, or choose to learn from it (for anyone not sure what I mean, look up the works of Sigmund Freud [concerning dreaming]. A great example can be found here: http://www.wsu.edu:8...er_2/freud.html ). It may seem like I went off on a tangent there, but I think there is a real connection.

Peace

Edited by basskidd, Oct 22, 2008 - 11:55.

[greaterthaninfinity]

Human logic conforms with neither religion nor science. In general, cause and effect is the backbone of our logic. We perceive everything that happens to have a cause.

If you are on the side of science, then I ask you - what happened before the Big Bang? And if you can answer that - what happened before that?
If you are on the side of relgiion, then I ask you - what gave rise to God? And if you can answer that - what gave rise to that which gave rise to God?

Neither arguments make sense IMO. I think we, as humans, just have to accept the fact that there are certain things beyond the scope of our comprehension.

[Cubz]

For all those people who insist on saying that the universe is simply too complex for it to have existed out of nothing, if again we look at probabilities, there IS a minute chance, 1 in again many numbers, that everything could work out to how we know it today. Seeing as there is probably around that many planets in the universe, and we are the only ones contain life, that suggests that it is entirely plausible that this happened by chance.
On another note even though the probability of all this happening by itself is slim, the probability of a creature, who again came about by chance with no creator, who has a complex enough mind to create all of this complex life on earth, is less than that of the creation of the earth by itself.

[017631]

Great thread I have to say~~

But in all seriousness, I have to agree with Cubz. Although I myself am not athiest, at times I seem to question whether god is really real.
I go to church every Sunday though, my parents are Christians.

I agree most with Greather Than infinity
Either way you look at this argument, there are questions that cannot truly be answered by fact.
Until the day comes when we truly understand the events that preceeded our existance, we can never come to a conclusion..

[Paul]

Cubz, on Oct 22 2008, 10:00 AM, said:

I dunno if any of you have read Richard Dawkin's The God Delusion?

I have. I do not quite agree with Dawkins, but he does, occasionally, have interesting points.

Cubz, on Oct 22 2008, 10:00 AM, said:

While we cannot prove or disprove the existence of god or a higher being, or creator, we can work with probabilities.

I think that pulling a completely random number out of nowhere and presenting that as the "probability that God exists" is not a proof of any kind.

Cubz, on Oct 22 2008, 10:00 AM, said:

Obviously you can tell that i'm 100% atheist, and have been since I was about 6.

With all respect to You and atheists everywhere, claims like that make me a lot less eager to take people seriously. I don't think that anybody is ever "100%" anything. Even if absolute certainty exists, it's definitely not, in my opinion, an easy thing to achieve, something to casually toss into your speech like that.

I personally feel that there is some sort of a higher force everywhere, but since it's just a feeling (an opinion) I'm trying not to act in a definite or arrogant way about it. I quite highly appreciate the set of believes known as "buddhism", but I wouldn't say that I'm "100% buddhist". Closer to "18% buddhist, 15% hindu, 14% christian, 12% atheist" etc..

[SharkSpider]

It seems that I would be able to state that we do not know whether or not God exists without offending or seriously disagreeing with anyone, so I'll make that statement. If we don't know, then we have the ability to look at effects (such as our own existence) and attempt to tie them to a cause. This may be what we do, but in itself it is always and will always be flawed logic. This is because the same event may have different potential causes. Looking at intelligent design and evolution, it is apparent that both sides cite the same evidence. Materialists tend to make the argument that if something is possible without a god, there is no god. This is as ridiculous as presenting a hard problem that a person cannot solve, and then using their inability to solve it as evidence that god exists. Both of these things are precisely what these debates tend to become, which isn't too bad, it's a way of forming opinions.

So, to go back to the point, I would state that since we cannot prove the existence of god as true or false, to state that you have knowledge that permits you to make that claim would be a lie. Essentially, it is wrong to conceive that you know whether or not god exists. That would be wrong in an absolute sense, essentially, as wrong as you can be. To show this, if knowledge is justified true belief, then belief that is true but not justified is not knowledge, and belief that is not justified nor true is not knowledge. Therefore, since no true justification for the existence of god exists, to think that one has knowledge of the affirmative or negative is to think that something is knowledge when it is not knowledge. Thus, we show that this is wrong by purely rational thinking, and is therefore wrong in a completely non-relative sense. Now, since this all sounds like a load of uselessness, consider that claiming to know whether or not god exists, as many fundamentalist atheists and theists do, would be lying. If we agree that lies are in general immoral, then teaching someone that god does or does not exist would then be immoral. Interesting thought, there, but that would be a digression.

Anyways, my own opinion is that since I perceive myself to be conscious, then I would assume that this is true, though the argument that my own free will is a delusion must be considered. I tend to refute this argument on the basis that if there is nothing to experience a delusion, then the delusion does not exist, though this is far from a complete argument against materialism. Since I find myself believing that consciousness exists regardless of the material universe (since the material universe has no place for it) and that humans are the only known vessel for consciousness, then if there is a purpose for life it is so that life can experience consciousness. If that would be true, then I would state that belief in intelligent design would be belief that our own intelligence is capable of designing us. Now, I am strongly in favor of the theory of evolution, but the theory of evolution relies on some principles. Firstly, that life exists in a given form, meaning that life had to be formed somehow. No definite answer there. Secondly, that the fact that the weakest permutations die out leads to a constantly progressive evolution, that's fine by me. Thirdly, though, is the premise that somehow, these creatures known as humans started to do things that did not directly influence the survival and propagation of their own race. If you take a peek at Mazlow's hierarchy of needs, you will see that for some reason all of these motivations appear that appear to have popped in to existence randomly. Essentially, my one point is that since evolution does not adequately explain the behavior of humans, and since I perceive a consciousness within myself that appears to be prevalent among others, humans are as they are because they are conscious, since consciousness appears to be the fundamental difference between the motivations of humans and animals.

Now, the ramifications of that resolution (which I am not claiming to be perfect in any way, or absolutely true, or whatever) would be the belief that consciousness exists beyond humans, and that consciousness most likely played a role in some way in determining the vessel in which it resides. If that is the case, then the belief in a greater conscious entity that may or may not have had a hand in our own creation is not far fetched or ridiculous.

[Delysid]

"Does God exist?" is a bit of a closed question, and unanswerable by any means anyway. A person's own religion or faith is theirs to believe in, and if they believe in God, then yes, God exists for them. If you don't believe that God exists, then no, God doesn't exist for you.
Has anyone read The Quantum Gods by Jeff Love? My own personal faith and beliefs work along similar lines to what he introduces in The Quatum Gods. We are all responsible for our own existence and our own futures. Our subconscious is 'God.' Our outward personalities and actions are created by this God. People involved with psychoactive drugs, in particular LSD, psilocybin and mescaline often talk about the 'collective subconscious,' the amalgamation of our own personal 'Gods' into one force. I also believe in the fractal theory or the idea popularized by The Butterfly Effect, that a pattern can be seen in events that have occurred throughout history. For example, the British in WWI used a method of encoding and data transfer between listening posts which is stunningly alike to the data transfer coding and protocols of our modern internet. Everything happens for a reason, and we dictate those reasons.
This is my own personal opinion. Challenge it, and I will explain more precisely my beliefs, but I will not defend it nor encourage you to think the same as I do. Religion, faith and beliefs are so personal that I think it almost a shame that so many people have biases about people of certain religions. Christianity is one of the most interesting religions to explore, perhaps mainly because it is so widespread, and it is ignorant to assume that all Christians believe the same things. They may have similar base theories, but they all derive their own interpretations of these theories to form their own beliefs. "Does God exist?" may sound like a nice question to pose, but it is pointless: you're not going to come to a conclusive answer.

Edited by Delysid, Nov 03, 2008 - 00:40.

[Alouette]

I don't believe in God, but who am I to say if "He" exists or not? My answer would have to be: "I think God does not exist" rather than stating that God simply doesn't. If God existed, I don't see a reason for him to leave so many people in poverty, and bless others.

I live in the Philippines, and the poverty here is awful... Whenever I drive through a squatter village here, it reminds me of my lack of belief in God. He can't exist. That's just my personal take on it though, I know there are loads of arguments against... the argument that he shouldn't let so many people suffer.

[J35u5-Fr34k]

Seeing is beleiving is a statement/quote that is seriously outdated and quite frankly, flimsy.

is there a country in the world that you haven't been to? I dontnow you well but lets say, switzerland. If you've never been to it how do you know it exsists. word of mouth maybe, photos, souvenires from frineds who'v been there .
these things could all be faked  so you know it exsists beause you have faith that it exsists.

If I were to take the statement as true I woul say that sure, I can see God's amazing creations all around me which were created, are being sustained and are beautiful for just because he wanted thme to be.
so many things in this world prove God. Give me one statement that you think disproves Gopd and I will show you that its' worng.

[Mr. Shiver]

The only thing seeing everything all around you proves is that you have eyes.

[Ash]

Solaris, on Sep 23 2008, 07:45 PM, said:

GOD : 'Generator Operator Destructor'

There is nearly no evidence to support the existence of GOD. But some people really claim that GOD exists, by telling that they have seen him. Unless there is strong evidence to support the statement, you cannot consider it as 'truth'. But still mass majority of people live with the blind belief that GOD exists. What do you think, does GOD exist? Or humans just do not want to accept the truth due to 'neediness', by thinking if i pray to GOD, then i will get the thing i want.

This is a very debated topic and the comment that you have made that it is "blind" is wrong. I think GOd does exist....ur sayin tha we r supposed to believe that the earth was formed with a blast based on the big bang theory? i think thats really stupid

[Ash]

Solaris, on Sep 23 2008, 07:45 PM, said:

GOD : 'Generator Operator Destructor'

There is nearly no evidence to support the existence of GOD. But some people really claim that GOD exists, by telling that they have seen him. Unless there is strong evidence to support the statement, you cannot consider it as 'truth'. But still mass majority of people live with the blind belief that GOD exists. What do you think, does GOD exist? Or humans just do not want to accept the truth due to 'neediness', by thinking if i pray to GOD, then i will get the thing i want.

Take the Theory of Knowledge class...it will give you both sides of the topic

[KiwiFruit]

My mom thinks he does, was just thinking last night we all have personalities and we are all so unique this couldnt of just happened by chance.