395 replies to this topic

[Mr. Shiver]

Having been born and raised a Muslim myself, I'd say that those "scientific" verses have been hugely exaggerated. Vague, open-ended language and modern day knowledge together can easily put more significance to text than it deserves, and I don't think you need to have any modern scientific background to notice that something happens inside a woman's womb when semen enters the vagina, and that whatever lives in there gets bigger and bigger, or that there are stars in the sky, or that the world is made up of many small things.

To assume that the people of those times were not aware of these basic natural observations involves a fundamental arrogance that results from a lack of historical understanding.

Edited by Mr. Shiver, Dec 04, 2008 - 00:53.

[Irene]

J35u5-Fr34k, on Nov 18 2008, 02:37 PM, said:

so many things in this world prove God. Give me one statement that you think disproves Gopd and I will show you that its' worng.

Such as?

[Mr. Shiver]

JAYT, on Dec 4 2008, 02:37 AM, said:

Well, Mr. Shiver I said 'detailed' which doesn't mean 'Vague, open-ended language and modern day knowledge together can easily put more significance to text than it deserves'.

My whole point was that they're not detailed. I'm not sure why you're taking this personally.

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It actually has an accurate description of the womb, for example the approxiamate size and shape of the fetus at specific periods.

As I've said already, I don't think you need to have any modern scientific background to notice that something happens inside a woman's womb when semen enters the vagina, and that whatever lives in there gets bigger and bigger.

Now, let's take a look at the verses you're talking about, 39:6 and 3:12-16. First of all, "three veils of darkness" means nothing in relation to modern science, and sounds more like a poetic description of something unknown and mysterious which merely draws attention to the mystery of it. My feeling is that there's no reason not to consider the possibility that by that point in time a few people had used some common sense to decide that the living thing is probably "hanging" from somewhere inside the womb, or else it would fall out. As it grows, it must reach and surpass a point at which it becomes "bite-size". Then they would have looked at their own bodies and noticed that their bones are underneath their flesh, and figured that if the living thing is growing, the "bones" probably come first and then the "flesh". Because, they probably postulated, things grow from the inside out, not the outside in. I'm still not quite sure why you need advanced knowledge of embryology to map out this process.

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It has descriptions of the mountains structure in the earth's crust

"When you look at the mountains, you think they are standing still. But they are moving, like the clouds."

There is nothing in this verse to suggest that it contains any miraculous geological knowledge. It seems more like another fanciful poetic statement to me, where an apparently inanimate object is personified to capture the imagination of the reader. It's scientific accuracy could easily just be mere coincidence.

"And the mountains as pegs."

Well yeah, to a 7th century Arab, a large mountain in a comparatively enormous and unknown world could easily be characterized as a peg, especially since mountains often happen to be pointy at the top. Again, this verse doesn't suggest any knowledge of tectonic plates and continental drift. It does, however, tie in well with the Islamic principle of humility.

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and states clearly that the water of the the different oceans (pacific and atlantic) do not mix

I'm sure that by the time that verse appeared, the Arabs had realized from their Yemeni neighbours that sea water doesn't taste so good. In fact, it happens to taste kinda...salty. "Yuck! But that other fresh water tastes so much sweeter. Hmmm, how could this water taste so sweet and other water taste so salty? Maybe there's a barrier in between so that the good water and bad water don't mix!"

The Arabs weren't idiots. Their intellectual prowess in subsequent centuries can attest to this. It's entirely possible that the Qur'an's constant encouragement to better understand the world around them contributed a lot to their success. But it didn't come from nowhere. Even in times of great ignorance, communal knowledge is still preserved through generations of oral tradition and scripture, because we human beings have a certain curiosity about us which never really goes away.

And don't even try to throw that cosmological mysticism at me. It means absolutely nothing in relation to studies in astrophysics.

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I suggest you do a little more reading and research instead of telling me that i'm arrogant.

It's not you I was calling arrogant. What I was calling arrogant is the entire idea that 1400 years ago people weren't able to think for themselves, and that's the assumption that has to be made in order to consider a few verses from an allegedly divine text to be "scientific miracles".

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Here's a link so that you may get rid of some of your own ignorance.

http://www.islamicit.../iqs/sld003.htm

You can go ahead and believe that God exists (I'm pretty sure I still do too, albeit with many reservations), but this is not the evidence that would support that notion. And again, I say this having myself been born and raised a Muslim.

One last bit of advice for you: avoid calling people you've never met before ignorant, because that itself is an ignorant thing to do. Oh, and biased sources with confirmation bias from a few "expert opinions" does not justify anything.

Edited by Mr. Shiver, Dec 05, 2008 - 01:26.

[LONG HIE LEI]

its abit stupid not believiing in a supreme power, as any scientific knoweledge of biology, chemistry or physics would force you to believe in it.
firstly  MATTER CANT BE CREATED OR DESTROYED. so how did the big bang happen, where did the matter come from. from a supreme power who gave a part of it. the bible isnt a histroical book, you have to read betweeen the lines, you arent spoon fed. so it says he said let there be light-this could be the big bang as there was naturally alot of light.

cell theory. CELLS CAN ONLY BE MADE THROUGH PRE-EXISTING CELLS. how the hell did any cells form then. there must be something out there. cant have all been chance could it
???

[Mr. Shiver]

LONG HIE LEI, on Dec 18 2008, 06:47 AM, said:

so how did the big bang happen, where did the matter come from.

Until you realize that there is no answer to this question, you will continue to erroneously believe there is only one.

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how the hell did any cells form then. there must be something out there. cant have all been chance could it
???

Abiogenesis, in theory, does not require the hand of a creator.

Edited by Mr. Shiver, Dec 19, 2008 - 00:08.

[josephchoi]

Before I begin, I gotta apologize, since I'm not much of a sugarcoating type of person...

here we go.

My personal belief is that God does not exist, or that if he does, his existence is irrelevant to our own, or at the very least our daily life. Many ask questions such as "well if there's no god, then how was there a big bang?" I say it's energy. Energy was here perpetually. Energy caused the big bang. Now whether I'm right or wrong, or that what I say is contradictory to the physics law, that I don't know. If I'm wrong let me know.

Most of the pro-god arguments are "the world is so unique/diverse. God must be it" It frankly sounds like to me "I don't get it, so God must've done it." Almost all of the argument is the whole "god of the gaps" theory.

For the whole "it's your belief/my belief" people... Thanks, but I'd rather not believe and duke off with a God than to get the proverbial bum's rush cuz I ate bloody pork on sundays. I mean what the hell is that about? Most of the more universal morals just make bloody sense. Then there's the whole bible/torah/koran or whatever book you use, what's with the really ridiculous laws that you gotta keep? Sounds like to me God is some low-self esteem dude who's really got nothing better to do than meddle with peoples' lives. If he's there. I mean if there's a god and I meet him in the ol' afterlife, I'd say he deserves a good talking to. If he's anything like what people say, he'd understand. If not, hey I'm gone for good. Whatever.

And what's so bad about being a bloody result of an accident? isn't the whole idea of some all powerful vague god with so many contradictory rules so that either way you're getting it in the ass a lot worse?

[lindieeluieee]

Nah, he doesn't.

Just some mankind imagination to make themselves feel safer.

We had this debate in TOK and one interesting point we came accross was this:

A student said well, there's no certainty that god exists or doesn't but he just chooses to believe because, if there is indeed a God out there, believing in him would do him good, so he wouldn't have to go to hell afterwards. If it turns out there isn't, fine then, he'll just die. Big deal.

He has a point there but I disagree... I used to believe in God. But not for the afterlife part. I prayed to him when I wanted something. Sometimes it happened, sometimes it didn't. I think it's fine if one believes in God, to give themselves hope and make themselves feel good abt themselves. But God shouldn't be seen as a threat. There are people in this world who fear God, thinking that if they don't do what God says, they'll burn in hell forever or sth. That's sad. Because I don't believe in Gods who have issues with petty human problems. If there is a being really so divine, so kind and forgiving he wouldn't be asking Humans to obey this and that while on Earth, or suffer the consequences. I wouldn't even want to believe in a discriminating God. It would be a waste of my time.

To me, Gods will never exist. And if I find out that they do and are as dammned as humans thought them to be, then well, unlucky for me.

[josephchoi]

isn't that hypothesis tantamount to Pascal's Wager?

That little thing can be broken down to this.

If god exists:
If you believe the wrong god, you're screwed. (so that's one of literally 10000s)
If you don't do exactly as the holy scripture says, even if it happens to be the right god, you're screwed.

If god does not exist:
You basically wasted your life doing some strange pointless rituals and self-imposed prohibitions

Frankly I don't know what's worse.

[Mr. Shiver]

It's always amusing to see people try and use reason to justify religion. Anyone heard of Anselm? The guy basically defined God as "nothing superior to him can be conceived" and said that because the definition of God is correct, and because things that exist are superior to things that don't exist, God must exist because otherwise the definition can't be correct, and it is correct so he can't not exist. And this is supposed to be the strongest a priori argument for God.

Edited by Mr. Shiver, Dec 25, 2008 - 02:23.

[avrila]

moneyfaery, on Dec 4 2008, 12:33 AM, said:

Such as?

Yeap. So many things in this world prove the existence of God. Such as... (it is uncountable to write it all and this space is just too little)

For example, just take a look at your self. Focus on your face. Look further into your eyes. Look deeper into your black eye (if it is black). What do you see next? Of course you cannot see any further.  

But...

...through learning, we know that inside our eyes we have many tiny things that we cannot see with our naked eyes. We know about the retina that allows us to see, the blind spot that blocked our view, the sclera, the optic nerve and many more that works together and enables us to see this world. To learn, to study, to do IB and many more things in the world.

Such a great creation do not exist by itself. There must be a power that make all this thing happen. And it is the power of God for He is the Almighty.
It doesn't  mean that the fact we cannot see God is the reason why God does not exist.

There are many other things that cannot be seen but the fact is, it is exist. Can you see the wind? But how do you know that it is exist? Because you can feel the coldness of the wind. In the context of God. How do we feel the existence of God? Well, It is not that easy but it is not that hard either. It depends on the way we think. Being a big grown up person by now, we should have the feel that all the things that happen to us is made possible because of God.
Therefore, there is no doubt that God does exist and always watch us all the time.

[Mahuta ♥]

for those who dont believe in god's existence because they have no proof....
-Do you have a mind?
-yes...
-ok...can you see it?
-no....thats impossible....its not something touchable
-oh...alrighty....that...your mind doesnt exist...you have no mind
-what are you saying??? how the hell am i talking to you right now then?
-thats the same with god....you cant touch him...you cant see him...you cant hear him...but you just know he's there....because you see the effect....
and like the student who talked about the proofs in the quran....i was afraid to go into that before i saw you doing it....
i agree....i mean...this might be because im a muslim...but the scientific things said in the quran are being proven everyday by technology.....there's noway this was written by a human being is there?
this means,...like we believe that this is from god....this is the most obvious proof for us..

and like aloooot of you said...look at the universe around you...or never mind..look at yourself and the other people around you...
is it possible that the billions of human beings created millions of years ago are just a coincident?? is it possible?? i mean...coincedint are rare...let alone...continious!!!

i do in some way respect your opinions...but this is logic...how can you have the whole universe going in such detailed accuracy??
scientist proved that the universe is expanding..we had this told to us like 1400 years ago...

anyhow...this is to administrators:
this is a very conterversial issue......and its a very hot topic.....and i do respect that members should respect the rules and stuf...
but such topic is sort of inappropriate...especially if you want the members to participate objectivally.....you are touching on there religious beliefs that they're been raised on...so obviously one would offend some one else -involunatrily ofcourse- that totally refuses the religious belief...:S

like personally...i was trying my best to control my-self when i was writing this....hopefully i managed to...
i nicely suggest..just suggest...that this thread should be locked....because as you said..it is getting sort of like spam....this topic is kinda hard to talk about objectively(sp?)....
and honestly..some of the replies...did in some way offend me...although i repeat AGAIN....that i do respect the opinions

[Aboo]

If God existed, wouldn't he be taking an active stance in the prevention of all the cruelty that is happening in this world today?

I mean, if all the statements about there being a God are corrected, he created us so that he can see the pressure that we can go through? How many people does it take to create a genocide? Is that why God created us? To be killed and kill more people?

My belief in God is deprecating by the day. A look in the current affairs at the moment give some clear understanding of that.

[josephchoi]

mahuta, on Dec 30 2008, 10:29 PM, said:

for those who dont believe in god's existence because they have no proof....
-Do you have a mind?
-yes...
-ok...can you see it?
-no....thats impossible....its not something touchable
-oh...alrighty....that...your mind doesnt exist...you have no mind
-what are you saying??? how the hell am i talking to you right now then?
-thats the same with god....you cant touch him...you cant see him...you cant hear him...but you just know he's there....because you see the effect....
and like the student who talked about the proofs in the quran....i was afraid to go into that before i saw you doing it....
i agree....i mean...this might be because im a muslim...but the scientific things said in the quran are being proven everyday by technology.....there's noway this was written by a human being is there?
this means,...like we believe that this is from god....this is the most obvious proof for us..

and like aloooot of you said...look at the universe around you...or never mind..look at yourself and the other people around you...
is it possible that the billions of human beings created millions of years ago are just a coincident?? is it possible?? i mean...coincedint are rare...let alone...continious!!!

i do in some way respect your opinions...but this is logic...how can you have the whole universe going in such detailed accuracy??
scientist proved that the universe is expanding..we had this told to us like 1400 years ago...

anyhow...this is to administrators:
this is a very conterversial issue......and its a very hot topic.....and i do respect that members should respect the rules and stuf...
but such topic is sort of inappropriate...especially if you want the members to participate objectivally.....you are touching on there religious beliefs that they're been raised on...so obviously one would offend some one else -involunatrily ofcourse- that totally refuses the religious belief...:S

like personally...i was trying my best to control my-self when i was writing this....hopefully i managed to...
i nicely suggest..just suggest...that this thread should be locked....because as you said..it is getting sort of like spam....this topic is kinda hard to talk about objectively(sp?)....
and honestly..some of the replies...did in some way offend me...although i repeat AGAIN....that i do respect the opinions

So God is a Mind?

and vague prophesies that have myriad of different interpretations is bound to get SOMETHING right.

and don't be offended. If God's who you say he is, he's a big boy. Let him deal with this issue.

[myreeka]

TerioN., on Sep 27 2008, 09:26 PM, said:

Say Christianity was the first religion (I don't know what is, too lazy to do research on this)

Hinduism is the oldest known religion. However, Hindus did not seek to spread the religion. In fact, they chose to keep it to themselves, as conversion to Hinduism is "not allowed." Many people do it anyway.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Adding to the religion discussion, I do not believe that God is watching over your every move. I don't believe that just because you stepped on the cat's tail this morning, you got hit by a car this evening. I do somewhat believe in karma, but not for every action, every move, every word. I don't believe in Hell, because I don't believe in the Seven Deadly Sins, especially Sloth. If it existed, "God" would probably rip me out of life and send me straight to Hell.

What I do believe is that whatever a person believes will happen - for them. No one knows what comes after life, except for maybe a few of you guys. I don't diss magic. But since most people don't actually know, people are entitled to believe what they want.

I believe in many different things, many of my beliefs far-fetched by some people's standards. I believe whatever I like.
For example, my belief in karma ties in with my belief that every time a major decision has to be made, another world appears. So, I believe that there are many, many alternate worlds. This idea came out of the book Interworld, by Neil Gaiman and Michael Reaves. However, I don't believe that people can travel freely to and from these planes.
Quite a few of my beliefs come out of my favorite book, The Mysterious Stranger by Mark Twain. I believe that every decision made has a large impact on the path your life takes.

All of this ties into religion, because this is basically what I tie my religion to. I believe not in a supreme being but in a series of beliefs that depend on the person in question only. This ensures that my life is my own path, from beginning to end, and there is nothing that has been chosen for me that I cannot change. I live my life without that guilt and constant questioning that comes with a fixed religion. I am loose and undefined.

Although I don't believe in a Supreme Being, or God, I am very open-minded and can tolerate everything except when people believe that their religion is the only thing that exists in the world and that that is how it should be for everyone. I cannot stand the incredulous question, "You haven't read the Bible?"

But if you think about it, religion is the only real problem in the world. Look at all these wars...most are over religion. The Crusades? Religion. 9/11? Religion.  Iraq? Religion. It may not be obvious, but if you dig deep within the layers of cover-up reasons, it's there.

If you do choose to believe that there is a God, please don't shove it down people's throats. They are entitled to their own decisions, as you are. Try to force something upon them, and you'll see the war generalization's proof.

There are many different types of religion; not all are fixed. There are many different types of God; not all take form. There are many different types of people; not all agree.

[Irene]

myreeka, I like you. Belief ties people together; religion breaks them apart. Or something like that.

I think as long as your internal beliefs have no contradictions, there is nothing 'wrong' with your belief system. (Unfortunately, most of us are hypocrites to some degree.) Imo, religion is good in the sense that it can guide your moral judgments, but following it like it has a set of iron-clad rules is just absurd. And the whole 'My religion is right, yours is wrong' or the 'My religion said this and this so I am right and you should be burned/stoned/killed' pisses me off to no end.

[Mr. Shiver]

moneyfaery, on Dec 31 2008, 04:22 PM, said:

I think as long as your internal beliefs have no contradictions

I'm beginning to believe this is impossible, given the omnipresence of ambiguity.

Edited by Mr. Shiver, Jan 01, 2009 - 02:28.

[Mahuta ♥]

josephchoi, on Dec 31 2008, 07:16 AM, said:

So God is a Mind?

and vague prophesies that have myriad of different interpretations is bound to get SOMETHING right.

and don't be offended. If God's who you say he is, he's a big boy. Let him deal with this issue.

lol..no...im just giving an example! ...
if you claim that god doesnt exist because you just cant get touchable/seeable proof....then that applied to your mind as well doesnt it?
and this is for everyone...
ok..so GOD doesnt exist...when you're in trouble..like...serious trouble...why does EVERYONE...go like.."oh god please help"..or.."oh lord"...whether or not they believe in god...am i not right? and just watch people as they're struggling in something...this is...something like....a serious car accident..or anything of that sort...
why do we seem to be calling out for him when it concerns our lives? i mean..just watch your self if you ever fall in such trouble...you will deep inside be pleading god to help you...no?
and just the fact that some people who do NOT believe in god actually plead him when they want their lives saved..says alot about his existence...

[Mr. Shiver]

Since you seem to want a response: that scenario doesn't really say anything about divine existence.

Ignoring the majority of the time time when "oh god" and "oh lord" in emotional situations are entirely colloquial in nature (and therefore insignificant), all that "calling out to him" shows is that some people may be more open to the possibility of divine intervention when they feel that they could benefit from it. In other words, people can be hypocritical. No news there.

Edited by Mr. Shiver, Jan 01, 2009 - 04:44.

[Mahuta ♥]

Mr. Shiver, on Jan 1 2009, 08:36 AM, said:

Since you seem to want a response: that scenario doesn't really say anything about divine existence.

Ignoring the majority of the time time when "oh god" and "oh lord" in emotional situations are entirely colloquial in nature (and therefore insignificant), all that "calling out to him" shows is that some people may be more open to the possibility of divine intervention when they feel that they could benefit from it. In other words, people can be hypocritical. No news there.

lol..i dont entirely agree but ok...i respect your opinion...

[dexter]

Well, I am a Muslim but lived amongst different relgions and what i come to beleive is that knowing that there is a greater good a superior that knows everything and is watching over you and gave you day and night, moon and sun mother father brother/sisters life and all is God we can not define god but we can beleive that he is watching over for us. and someone said that why is bad things happening if he is there or something like that, well as most muslims beleive he is testing us, "life on earth" is a test to see who will give into the Sins and who will stay ontrack since the devil challenged god to corrupt as many people as he can (when he didnt obey god and bow to adam) so whether you beleive in god or not we SHOULD respect different opinions, and i actually am grateful that i was raised up around different cultures so that i can proudly say im a Muslim who beleive in a force that created all of what is around us