The country formerly known as the United Kingdom...

[Sandwich]

Potentially soon to be the United Kingdom of England and Wales, neighbours of the independent kingdom of Scotland.

I am sure any of you who follow world news at all will know about the recent "Brexit", namely the vote by a very narrow margin (52% to 48%) for the United Kingdom to give up its long standing membership of the European Union and thereby free access to the single market and all benefits and responsibilities of being a member of the EU.

I thought it would be interesting to see what other people thought of it, from wherever in the world you are, and speculate on such things as whether it'll actually go through, and what on earth is going to happen next....

And of course whether a newly xenophobic Britain really wants to offer the IB in its schools  (yes, that one is a joke)

[Keel]

Whether you agree with the result or not, most people would agree that the referendum held on the 23^rd June was a great exercise of democracy –many people across Europe (the Dutch especially) would also like their own say on European Union membership but currently do not have the opportunity [1]. Hence, this event is truly unique and monumental in that after 41 years since the referendum on UK’s membership of the Common Market in 1975, the people of the UK were once again consulted on their opinion. This topic is controversial and emotive, there will clearly be a large variety of opinion. There is no doubt in my mind that the UK would be better off leaving the EU and this is a view I have held for some time. There are several points which are often made by those in favour of remaining that I would like to address:

 

Immigration: “Voting to leave the EU is xenophobic and racist ”

Not only is this statement narrow minded, I would actually argue the opposite – being part of the EU requires you to be discriminatory against non-EU nationals. The current immigration policy in the UK gives uncontrolled entry to EU nationalist whilst non-EU nationals are required to apply for the right of abode, work visas and the like. With high levels of immigration over the past two decades the government has had to turn away an increasing number of non-EU nationals in order to attempt to meet their mandate or reduced net migration. This sort of system is highly unfair in my opinion – I would like to see an immigration system where non-EU nationals are not discriminated against and everyone wanting to come and live in the UK are judged based on the same criteria. A vote to leave is not anti-immigration, it is a vote for sensible, fair, controlled immigration – just like any other non-EU country on the planet. Whether you agree with the current immigration policy of the UK or not, we should all agree that everyone regardless of race or nationality should be treated equally and EU nationals should be subject to the same rules Americans, Australians and any other non-EU nationals have to face [2].  

 

Trade and UK's Global Role: “A vote for ‘leave’ is a vote for isolationism and protectionism”

This again is not true. In fact, any high school economics student can easily point out that the European Union is a textbook example of economic protectionism. Not only do member states of the EU apply a common tariff to the rest of the world, they are prevented from negotiating their own free trade deals and are required to give up their seat at the World Trade Organisation. It is well established from economic theory that countries who participate in tariff style protectionism ultimately face high consumer prices relative to the global market price. Having voted to leave the EU, the UK is now free to negotiate free trade with the rest of the world and there is already movement for a free trade agreement with Canada, independent of the EU [3] – this gave rise to the pro-leave phrase: “We’re not leaving Europe, we’re rejoining the world”. Trade liberalisation ultimately means lower consumer prices and a more competitive economy due to global competition.

 

The UK Economy: “The leave vote has trashed the UK economy”

Most people will point to the fall in GBP or the FTSE and say the economy is in freefall. It is worth noting that on the evening of the 23^rd of July pollsters, financial analysts and politicians were all expecting a remain vote i.e. the remain vote was priced into the market which meant a high volume of trades were long GBP and UK shares. When the leave votes started to come in, this came as a shock and traders around the world started selling UK assets to close their position. The effect of everyone hitting the sell button at the same time is a severe drop in price. It is interesting to note that the FTSE100 is exactly where it was 2 weeks ago. With regards to the pound, GBP/USD has been in a bear market since the third quarter of 2014 where it has lost 18% of value over that period. The bottom line is that nothing fundamental has changed in the UK economy and that the down turn is mainly due to uncertainty and volatility. People around the world have recognised this and are accumulating the Pound for their next holiday to Britain [4] – while imports to the UK may decrease, the silver lining is that the UK will now see a boost in tourism and its exports are now more competitive. Not all doom and gloom George Osborn would have you believe – where is he anyways? Didn’t he have an emergency Brexit budget?

 

[1] http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36615879

[2] https://www.theguardian.com/money/2016/mar/12/eu-workers-deported-earning-less-35000-employees-americans-australians

[3] http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/uk-canada-free-trade-deal-brexit-1.3652048

[4] http://www.smh.com.au/world/brexit-mayhem-as-australians-rush-to-buy-pounds-20160624-gprfuv.html

[Sandwich]

On 27 June 2016 at 1:41 AM, Keel said:

Not all doom and gloom George Osborn would have you believe – where is he anyways? Didn’t he have an emergency Brexit budget?

 

I have some sympathy with the first point about making immigration fair by not discriminating against non-EU citizens, it's a rigged system in favour of fellow Europeans. However freedom of movement amongst european citizens is a prerequisite of access to the single market. Without access to the single market the UK would so badly damage its ability to trade that we'd plunge into the deepest recession ever seen, we do just under half of our trade with the EU and access to the single market is one of the key reasons why London is the financial capital of Western Europe. We'd ruin our financial services industry, no longer be attractive to international business and have to pay hefty tariffs in order to do trade that was previously 'free'. We'd be sending in money, probably just as much, but getting nothing back in return. The UK is massively in receipt of output from the EU, financially. In short  the trade-off is completely and utterly not worth it. It is an economic national suicide that I am not willing to live my life in poverty for.

"Freedom" of trade is another idealism in my opinion. As I said, almost half of our trade is with other EU countries. They are our neighbours, it makes sense. To destroy our ability to easily trade with them on the assumption that the rest of the world is gagging to come and trade with us is kind of mental. I also don't think that isolationism and protectionism specifically applies just to trade, I think it applies to the culture of the country. The UK has just displayed a big "**** off" sign on its door. We used to be part of a big community and we've just voted ourselves off the team, on purpose. What kind of signal does that send out? We're facing a future where we potentially don't have freedom of movement (although I sincerely hope we do - as above I think we'd be activating our suicide vests to leave the EEA). We'd rather Scotland left the UK than co-operate with our neighbours and the break-up of the entire United Kingdom is now back on the cards again with a vengeance, and who can blame the Scots. Although they are very dependent on England and our screwing of ourselves has screwed them so much that who knows if they'd be able to stand on their own two feet, so we've kind of screwed them whichever way you look at it.

As for the leave vote trashing the UK economy... it just has. We've lost more money in the past few days than we paid into the EU in the last 15 years. And at least we got a lot of that back in subsidies. Most of the FTSE 100 are international companies, and most of the **** we've just poured on ourselves isn't going to make itself known for some time. The problem we have is that uncertainty isn't just about ephemeral things like markets, but actual people on the ground. EU funding was behind a hell of a lot of the things that made the UK attractive and competitive - science, research, technology, education. We also had a lot invested in big things like the Hadron Collider, the European Space Agency, Defence projects etc. which we'll presumably have to give up all returns from. Access to the EU and stability made it attractive as a financial centre. We've certainly lost the first, with no money to replace it, and are threatening the second. This isn't a snap shot stock market issue, this is a serious self-inflicted blow. Big sources of our income and innovation have just been destroyed in the blink of an eye. Science and technology is shock and mourning. I know I've never been involved in any kind of research lab that wasn't receiving EU funding, and that funding is propping up our Universities.

Honestly I don't think a single scrapped law or some kind of points based immigration system (which isn't even going to be possible anyway, unless we want to hate on ourselves even more than we already have) is worth this completely self-inflicted destruction of our economy and our society. We're now in a position where we're going to have to follow along with what the EU wants as part of the single market (I hope) but unlike before with no say on it and no ability to protect ourselves from things which aren't in our favour. We've lost the veto, and we've lost all our influence - and we had a lot of influence and a lot of unique opt-outs from the EU, in order to protect our own interests. On top of which other Europeans think we're a bunch of racists, and it turns out a lot of us are. The future looks bleak; we've gone from coming out of a recession into making a whole new one for ourselves. All at a time when the threats against us are becoming more and more international, so obviously we've just opted out of protective things like EU co-operation over big issues like terrorism because that makes a lot of sense... 

The bigger picture than a few points of principle is a big pile of stinky poo. On top of which we've all lost our own rights to move, live and work within the EU. What a waste. Personally I feel sick to the stomach. My future feels like a dark place, my own country seems in ruins in so many ways.

Also on a final note of insult, I don't know if this even was democracy. In my opinion it should never have gone to a referendum, for the simple reason that the EU is hugely complicated. I mean this is why we have a parliament; we should elect MPs to vote and make decisions, that's their job to represent us and understand these issues. So many voters are coming out and saying they didn't know XYZ. Some going 'full retard' to quote the film Tropic Thunder and betraying the fact they don't even know what the EU is. Thinking we've just stopped muslim refugees from coming here. People who think all sorts of ****, some racist, some just confused, lots who didn't realise what the EU gives us, for many it was just a protest vote. I'm going to honestly say I didn't know all the facts about the EU and I did a lot of research to find out. If there were a second referendum today I do think it would go the other way. Now I'm not going to say that invalidates the first one, democracy has unfortunately happened and shat upon us all. However I do think that we'd be complete morons to let the 'common people' decide something so hugely complicated again in future, with some safeguards in place. Not about a vote going one way or another, but on something of this magnitude you need some checks and balances. Such as a requirement that the subsequent deal reached between the UK and the EU also be put to the vote. I mean we've just voted for a big pile of question marks and a big pile of ****. Is that democracy in anything deeper than the word? What do we even elect representatives for otherwise.

[Keel]

2 hours ago, Sandwich said:

It is an economic national suicide that I am not willing to live my life in poverty for.

Really? Yea I guess there won't be as many sushi bars in Soho.

1 hour ago, Sandwich said:

We'd rather Scotland left the UK than co-operate with our neighbours and the break-up of the entire United Kingdom is now back on the cards again

The question on the ballot paper had nothing to do with Scottish independence - it asked whether the UK should remain as part of the EU. Anyone who voted remain to keep the Scots in the UK missed the point. Anyways, what's wrong with an independent Scotland? It's certainly not for the English to decide. Why is it so hard for you to accept that the two groups of people want different things?

1 hour ago, Sandwich said:

... democracy has unfortunately happened and shat upon us all. However I do think that we'd be complete morons to let the 'common people' decide something so hugely complicated again in future .... 

Yup, 'the plebs are too stupid' aren't they? It is exactly this kind of arrogant, elitist attitude which cost the remain side the referendum.

 

I don't agree with Nigel Farage's undiplomatic attitude or his style, but the principles behind his message resonates with many across Europe. Rant and call half the country racist, un-educated, bigoted, nazi-sympathising all you want. The truth of the matter is that big business and big institutions have benefited greatly from the EU at the expense of the working man who now has nothing to lose.

Bye EU, Bye Cameron, Bye Corbyn, Good bye Lib-Lab-Con - You've all been so out of touch, your time is up. 

 

 

[sweggymccarry]

On 27.6.2016 at 3:41 AM, Keel said:

Whether you agree with the result or not, most people would agree that the referendum held on the 23^rd June was a great exercise of democracy –many people across Europe (the Dutch especially) would also like their own say on European Union membership but currently do not have the opportunity [1]. 

The article you linked to doesn't explain that many people across Europe, and as you put it "the Dutch especially" want to leave the EU. It much rather goes to show that many eu skeptic politicians express their opinion and tell the people that they should also hold a referendum.

 

On 27.6.2016 at 3:41 AM, Keel said:

Not only is this statement narrow minded, I would actually argue the opposite – being part of the EU requires you to be discriminatory against non-EU nationals. The current immigration policy in the UK gives uncontrolled entry to EU nationalist whilst non-EU nationals are required to apply for the right of abode, work visas and the like. With high levels of immigration over the past two decades the government has had to turn away an increasing number of non-EU nationals in order to attempt to meet their mandate or reduced net migration. This sort of system is highly unfair in my opinion – I would like to see an immigration system where non-EU nationals are not discriminated against and everyone wanting to come and live in the UK are judged based on the same criteria. A vote to leave is not anti-immigration, it is a vote for sensible, fair, controlled immigration – just like any other non-EU country on the planet. Whether you agree with the current immigration policy of the UK or not, we should all agree that everyone regardless of race or nationality should be treated equally and EU nationals should be subject to the same rules Americans, Australians and any other non-EU nationals have to face [2].  

 I'd argument the quite opposite. When there is the possibility that people can move freely between nations, why take it away? Yes, not the whole world can benefit from it, but at least some can. Threating everyone the same way might give everyone equal opportunity to go to the UK, but so what? Equal opportunity does not automatically mean that you are less discriminatory; if you say the EU requires you to be discriminatory against non-EU nationals, and go on to threat everyone as non-EU nationals you aren't less discriminatory, you are discriminatory to the whole world, since you threat everyone the same way except the british population.

 

It is also worth pointing out that many of the "Leave" arguments were straight out propaganda or based on nationalist ideas. I also agree with Sandwich - the british economy will not benefit from it. 

 

Articles that argument similarly 

 

http://www.marke****ch.com/story/british-pound-could-hit-history-making-dollar-parity-by-end-of-2016-2016-06-27

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2016/06/28/britain-sees-surge-in-xenophobic-attacks-amid-decision-to-leave-european-union.html?intcmp=latestnews

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/eu-referendum-result-has-the-french-economy-really-overtaken-the-uk-in-size-since-last-night-a7101361.html

http://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2016/06/24-joint-statement-uk-referendum/

https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/4qa2v8/dutch_finance_minister_and_eurogroup_president/

 

 

 

 

 

  

Edited June 28, 2016 by sweggymccarry

[Keel]

3 minutes ago, sweggymccarry said:

The article you linked to doesn't explain that many people across Europe, and as you put it "the Dutch especially" want to leave the EU. It much rather goes to show that many eu skeptic politicians express their opinion and tell the people that they should also hold a referendum.

I never said the Dutch wanted to leave the EU, did I? I said they wanted a say on their membership.

5 minutes ago, sweggymccarry said:

if you say the EU requires you to be discriminatory against non-EU nationals, and go on to threat everyone as non-EU nationals you aren't less discriminatory, you are discriminatory to the whole world, since you threat everyone the same way except the british population.  

A British local can't immigrate to the UK because they are already in the UK. Thus, only people outside the UK can immigrate to the UK. Ergo, a single immigration policy which is applied to all non-UK nationals is, by definition, non-discriminatory. 

11 minutes ago, sweggymccarry said:

 I also agree with Sandwich

I'm not surprised

[Sandwich]

2 hours ago, Keel said:

I don't agree with Nigel Farage's undiplomatic attitude or his style, but the principles behind his message resonates with many across Europe. Rant and call half the country racist, un-educated, bigoted, nazi-sympathising all you want. The truth of the matter is that big business and big institutions have benefited greatly from the EU at the expense of the working man who now has nothing to lose.

I think it is highly patronising, incorrect and frankly flippant to say "not so many Sushi bars in Soho" given that Soho is the most politically liberal area of London and that sushi is clearly a Japanese tradition and sod all to do with the EU no matter what we think. Until we start racially abusing Japanese people (perhaps only a matter of time), they have no need to go anywhere. It is also a massive trivialising of the huge hit to the ££ and the on-going hit to our economy that will clearly result from dramatically decreased investment in productive aspects of our society. Unless you live in some kind of parallel dream planet where this isn't factually happening, then it is factually happening and based on facts, is going to be part of an on-going decline. The future looks like stool. This is the medical term.

What's wrong with an independent Scotland? Absolutely nothing as far as I'm concerned. But, as with many English and Scots on a personal note I am British and not a single nationality. I am part Scottish, part Welsh and part English. British is my national identity, it is what brings together a hell of a lot of my personal cultural history and identity. If Scotland separates, I think they have a hell of a valid reason to avoid English suicide and ideally I hope they will accept all those with a claim to Scottish ancestry who wish to remain European citizens and pledge to contribute to the Scottish economy, because I will be amongst those people. I am English and born in England but struggle to recognise the people I was born amongst except for locally. I am both fortunate and unfortunate enough to be from a pro-remain area and living in a pro-remain area. Nationally, I feel I have more in common with European citizen of X country than people of my own country. However I didn't mean to make this discussion about me. Only that I would factually support an independent Scotland because frankly, the English lied to them and I feel the shame of that acutely. I also hope they will feel enough generosity in their hearts to save me from this situation, and honestly I will contribute to their economy as much as I possibly can. On the most fundamental level, it breaks my heart that I grew up in a unified United Kingdom and may be starting my adult life in a United Kingdom divided where people may never again be so proud to say they are both English and Scottish. Which I am. It may be small print, but it is my cultural identity and it upsets me that half of my background is comprised of 'xenophobes' and 'racists' and the other part is progressive. I know that is not true, but that is how this referendum has divided us. And frankly I know which side I would rather be on - the one which gives me a future that I actually want to be part of.

As for the arrogant elitist attitude, I have to say I think it is deluded to say we all had the correct information available. I didn't either. So if you think it is being arrogant and elitist, so be it, I am only explaining the truth. I do think there was a misleaded vote and also a 'protest' vote - this has also been demonstrated by views expressed from Leave voters since this ended. So I'm hardly saying everybody felt this way, but it would be deluded to think it wasn't a fact. If the 'working man' thinks he has nothing to lose, he is ignorant of what he had in an economically productive and stable country with massive EU subsidies that I suspect he or she was never aware of. And again, the facts since this vote point to this being the truth. People had no idea what the EU did for them, just a load of bull**** to the opposite. So if the Cornish are sitting embarrassedly waiting for their £60 million despite voting leave... they are going to be waiting for a hell of a long time. So speaks the proof of interviews of all those who have been interviewed since Brexit and frankly no idea that the EU even gave them anything before hand. I guess they will find out, as we all unfortunately will, the hard way. The Brexit campaign spun a load of lies such that those who did vote to leave did not have a clear idea of what kind of hell we were going to live in post-Brexit. Otherwise I would be remarkably surprised if as many would ever have voted for this self-imposed decline. Not from 'elitism' but from pragmatism and common sense, which this country against all odds actually usually has in abundance. Apart from the 23rd of June. 

The tragic thing is we're going to have to watch this realisation dawn and then when people realise what a desperate situation we are in, we'll be able to do very little about it because the EU are hardly going to forgive this. It is against all of their interests to do so in terms of keeping the union together. Thanks to issues like Spain and Catalunya, they may never even let Scotland join the EU separate from the UK due to the precedent it would set. So is the way of the world. Those who think you can give up all responsibility and yet still reap rewards are living on another planet. Sorry.

And really truly sorry because I'm going to be here living in this pile of **** with you all, despairing at my fellow man and wondering how the hell I came to be born in this selfish intolerant place that would rather shoot itself in the foot than be generous to its fellow man. Sadly it is not so easy to gain citizenship of another country. As I am sure many refugees know from attempting to enter the EU. Perhaps all those who wished to work and live abroad will soon know what this is like. I wish I had been born elsewhere in the EU because I am sick to the stomach of being British. People here have no idea what they have got and this ignorance has destroyed both the future they didn't know they had and the future I honestly did know I had. Had in the past tense now. Cheers guys, I'd clearly love to sink on this ship with you... my only regret is that I can't go back in time and be born on a different fricking ship. Maybe then I wouldn't wake up every morning and remember how bleak the world seems. I only hope we are able to right this wrong before it is too late, or that if we have to face the consequences, I am able to come up with some option that allows me to leave in line with my beliefs for an open-minded, inclusive and forward-thinking future, as opposed to the present whimsies of geography that mean I am doomed to suffer in the Brexit camp for however long it takes the EU to get over the hugely dysfunctional move we have pulled on them.

[Keel]

10 minutes ago, Sandwich said:

I think it is highly patronising and incorrect to say "not so many sushi bars in soho" given that soho is the most politically liberal area of London and that sushi is clearly a Japanese tradition and sod all to do with the EU no matter what we think. Until we start racially abusing japanese people, they have no need to go anywhere.

It's funny how you read racism into everything. So I'm a racist am I? Well I can happily tell you I'm half Asian, I don't need a lecture on multi-racial tolerance from you   . Let me expand and explain my sushi bar comment:

5 hours ago, Sandwich said:

It is an economic national suicide that I am not willing to live my life in poverty for.

If you think your career in the state funded medical profession will lead to your poverty in the coming years then I deeply regret that. Leaving the EU may be bad for the big banks and the multinationals in London, i.e. less money spent at the sushi bars, but I really don't think the people in Bolton give a toss.

[Sandwich]

9 minutes ago, Keel said:

It's funny how you read racism into everything. So I'm a racist am I? Well I can happily tell you I'm half Asian, I don't need a lecture on multi-racial tolerance from you   . Let me expand and explain my sushi bar comment:

If you think your career in the state funded medical profession will lead to your poverty in the coming years then I deeply regret that. Leaving the EU may be bad for the big banks and the multinationals in London, i.e. less money spent at the sushi bars, but I really don't think the people in Bolton give a toss.

Where in hell did I say you were racist???? Since when is saying Japanese people are not part of the EU a racist statement? x__x Am I going mad, are they secret EU members and I'm a racist to suggest they aren't??

And yes I think the state will be poorer in the future and have less money to spend on things that it usually spends money on. Although ironically it has been underfunding things like healthcare for some time, so who knows where it will be X years in the future. Currently it is in crisis, with summer pressures that give no relief whatsoever on winter pressures and a massive backlog - and that is pre a massive tightening of the belts that even in the most optimistic of views assuming some kind of miraculous economic recovery with no realistic foundation, looks on the cards post-EU.

If the people in Bolton think that money will affect disposable income only from people who spend money in sushi restaurants in central London (which is your implication, insofar as I can tell?) then they are deeply wrong. People in central London eating in sushi restaurants are by and large international people with plenty of spare income to afford that kind of food. Who are going to be hit badly by this. There is nothing to suggest that the poor will not be hit equally as badly as the wealthy by this economic decline. And a lot of common sense to suggest that a decline for the wealthy is but a smidgeon of the kind of decline in living standards that can be expected for those who had little to begin with, in relative terms. And if they think people in Bolton are immune from things like needing healthcare then the news is that they are in fact MORE in need of healthcare than other relatively well-off parts of the country. For that you can blame either elitism or the fact that greater financial inequality results in worth health outcomes, depending on your perspective of blaming the person saying it or the outcome of what actually happens.

[Keel]

54 minutes ago, Sandwich said:

I think it is highly patronising, incorrect and frankly flippant to say "not so many Sushi bars in Soho" given that Soho is the most politically liberal area of London and that sushi is clearly a Japanese tradition and sod all to do with the EU no matter what we think. Until we start racially abusing Japanese people (perhaps only a matter of time), they have no need to go anywhere.

Why is it patronising to mention sushi bars in Soho? Why mention that Soho is the most liberal area of London? Why mention sushi being a Japanese tradition? Why say the Japanese people have no need to go anywhere?...

If not to portray my comments as xenophobic, a consistent tactic used by those opposing 'leave'.

A life out of the common fisheries policy, the common agricultural policy and a weak pound to support manufacturing and exports, I think a lot of people in rural England and Wales have a lot to look forward to.

[sweggymccarry]

1 hour ago, Keel said:

A British local can't immigrate to the UK because they are already in the UK. Thus, only people outside the UK can immigrate to the UK. Ergo, a single immigration policy which is applied to all non-UK nationals is, by definition, non-discriminatory. 

When people want to immigrate to the UK or any other place it is because they were not born there. To immigrate means that one goes to a country of which one is not a native. The general idea of dividing the world into territories between nations and states leads to the issue that one person is born somewhere and someone else is born elsewhere, which as you can think brings advantages or disadvantages with itself. So, by this principle the UK or any other nation or state discriminates others who were not born in that country by seeing it as someone who comes from somewhere else, expecting him to go through lenghly processes to immigrate. 

 

This principle is in itself discriminatory; when you expect others who weren't born in your country over which they don't have any from of decision to have to immigrate, whereas one could just freely move from one place to another. 

Quote

I never said the Dutch wanted to leave the EU, did I? I said they wanted a say on their membership.

Fine, I interpreted that wrong. My point still stands that your article only points out that some right-wing politicians want to hold a referendum, which doesn't necessarily reflect itself in the population.

Edited June 29, 2016 by sweggymccarry

[Keel]

28 minutes ago, sweggymccarry said:

So, by this principle the UK or any other nation or state discriminates others who were not born in that country by seeing it as someone who comes from somewhere else, expecting him to go through lenghly processes to immigrate. 

Then why doesn't the EU open its borders to the world? Stop being so discriminatory! I'm sure millions of people would love to take advantage of Germany's high minimum wage and the welfare state benefits - can you blame them?

25 minutes ago, sweggymccarry said:

Fine, I interpreted that wrong. My point still stands that your article only points out that some right-wing politicians want to hold a referendum, which doesn't necessarily reflect itself in the population.

[1] http://www.nltimes.nl/2016/06/27/dutch-narrowly-nexit-70-low-educated-favor/

[2] http://www.nltimes.nl/2016/06/21/majority-dutch-also-want-referendum-eu-membership/

The principle is that the people of Europe must be asked whether they want to be part of this ever increasingly political union.

[sweggymccarry]

Just now, Keel said:

Then why doesn't the EU open its borders to the world? Stop being so discriminatory! I'm sure millions of people would love to take advantage of Germany's high minimum wage and the welfare state benefits - can you blame them?

My point here was to prove that the principle of a nation in itself is discriminatory. I did say that the UK or any other nation or state is putting coal into the fire. That includes the EU as well, because even though it isn't a nation or a state, it is a union which works in a similar way in that sense. 

 

The first article you linked literally says that according to the majority of polls the dutch people don't want to hold a referendum. 

Quote

The principle is that the people of Europe must be asked whether they want to be part of this ever increasingly political union.

Yes I agree, people should have the right to decide whatever their country should be. But when the politicians make promises, such as to fund the NHS with the 350 pounds the UK sent the EU each week (which also was a lie) just to seemingly break their promise. 

Surely there were other more intellectual argumentations and discussions, but the fact that these kind of campaigns and advertisements exist takes away a lot of the "freedom" for some people to choose for oneself when you are manipulated and lied to.

 

 

[Keel]

10 minutes ago, sweggymccarry said:

The first article you linked literally says that according to the majority of polls the dutch people don't want to hold a referendum. 

Mate, do I really have to batter this point to death? There is a tide of euroscepticism growing across Europe and it is not uniquely British - that was my point. If a poll says 47% of Dutch want a referendum on their membership who is to say they won't get a referendum? Moreover, these polls are taken before the Brexit result. Who knows what the newest polls show? The 'plebs' must simply be asked.

 

17 minutes ago, sweggymccarry said:

Yes I agree, people should have the right to decide whatever their country should be. But when the politicians make promises, such as to fund the NHS with the 350 pounds the UK sent the EU each week (which also was a lie) just to seemingly break their promise. 

Why so one sided in your examples? How about Osborne's emergency tax hikes and spending cuts? Or Cameron's WWIII scaremongering? Politicians will spin stories and spew propaganda - it is part of the job. If you're wise enough to see through the propaganda, then I'm sure the average Briton is too; unless you're suggesting you know better than the average Briton?