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Israel vs Palestine


Abu

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Israel is going a bit far this time, with more killings of civilians than actually targeted Hamas extremists.

This conflict has gone on long enough, and it's pretty apparent by now, that infancy has prevailed over maturity in the conflict.

I'm all for Zionism but they don't really have to be that brutal about it now. Thoughts? Conflicting view points?

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I don't even know where to start.

First of all, I'm going to complain a bit and be bitter about how stupid Israel is and how they literally ruined everything (not just the whole fact that they killed over 300 people in 2 days, no no about the longterm negativiteis after this).

Basically I had a theory (which they drained it down the toilet with their stupid bloodthristy actions), Hamas was getting weaker, losing its power after the Hajj scandal (I'm not sure if you've all heard but basically, the "religious fanatics" banned muslims from Gaza Strip to go to the Hajj because according to them, Fatah had more "quota", and the PA begged them to let the muslims go and Egypt even opened its border to allow muslim pilgrims to take a plane into Saudi Arabia, but alas Hamas didn't let them, so the people got pissed, Saudi Arabia got pissed and declared them as horrible being in Islam, everyone got pissed at hamas, including the Gazans), with that, their power weakened and I foreshadowed that Hamas will soon enough continue to make stupid mistakes like that, because those so-called religious fanatics can't even stick with the 5 pillars of Islam.

On to my point.

Basically Hamas did sense that the people were getting angry at them, and therefore wanted to redeem themselves (but alas I kind of get confused here because Israel already had a raid on them on the 4th of Nov, already breaking the agreement and they didn't once open up the borders, not until Hamas started throwing rockets, probably they wanted to redeem themselves as well but too late for Israel I say), anyway, basically Hamas wanted to get popular with its people, and thus threw a couple of rockets into Israel. This pissed off Israel and they started a Gazan raid, in which they bombed the police station and several other civilians (great job Israel, bomb the police station, INCREASE THE CRIME RATES BECAUSE THAT'S PRECISELY WHAT WE NEED).

With that came the hopelessness and the desperation, people thus ran back to Hamas, so Hamas could help them.

And thus, Hamas has increased in power and will probably remain in Gaza Strip for atleast another year.

Keep up the good job Israel.

But what I wanted to say, is I can't believe Israel would actually kill 300 people for one person. I'm sorry but that's no excuse. And I still don't understand this mentality of kill all the terrorists. Don't they know that those "terrorists" emerge from oh I don't know, terrible living conditions, unemployment, constant humiliation, and whatnot? In fact the typical Gazan who lost his father and brother, who wipes the windows of the cars, barely enough money to get food for his grief-striken mother, a young man who tries to cross into Israel to find job oppertunities but is constantly rejected... that's the typical criteria of a suicide bomber, or as I'd like to call it, a prey for Hamas. So really, the only was to COMBAT terrorism, is actually to not give a reason for them to turn into terrorists, geez.

Oh and yeah I don't like Zionism. I don't mind Jews or Judaism, that's fine, but Zionism.....grrrrr.

Alright I'm done >.<

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I watched the Kingdom of Heaven yesterday (a historical movie about the crusades) and to me it seems like even after a millenium people are still so blinded by religion that they fail to see that what really matters, that it is not who owns Jerusalem, but that it is the people who reside there. What is the point of a holy place when there are no people to pray in it? If it is God's will for all these people to die in war with each other, what good is God? What good is Jerusalem?

Someday, they'd have to understand that this will never end and that the only way to stop it is to work together as they have done before (why ever did they stop?!).

But as long as these small scale warfare (which occasionally erupt to more extreme violence, as the latest incident) continues to take place, there wont't be any retreat from either sides.

But I seem to have a feeling, that if we are lucky, it might end in this century.

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I watched the Kingdom of Heaven yesterday (a historical movie about the crusades) and to me it seems like even after a millenium people are still so blinded by religion that they fail to see that what really matters, that it is not who owns Jerusalem, but that it is the people who reside there. What is the point of a holy place when there are no people to pray in it? If it is God's will for all these people to die in war with each other, what good is God? What good is Jerusalem?

Someday, they'd have to understand that this will never end and that the only way to stop it is to work together as they have done before (why ever did they stop?!).

But as long as these small scale warfare (which occasionally erupt to more extreme violence, as the latest incident) continues to take place, there wont't be any retreat from either sides.

But I seem to have a feeling, that if we are lucky, it might end in this century.

Actually, the conflict between the Israelis and Palestinians, in my opinion, has little to do with religion, and in fact has all to do with Zionism and clash of cultures. Jerusalem (and the rest of the holy land for that matter) has housed Muslims, Christians and Jews, even pagans, for centuries and centuries, it is true that the occasional fight broke out between them or the occasional battle. The only time when the war became huge and real was when the Crusades came swooping in (again I've read sources that the Crusades' intention for taking over jerusalem had to do with economical conquest, Jerusalem having a peculiar location between the rest of arabia and the Roman Empire, rather than religion conquest). Notice how the Crusades are European, their Roman Empire is of pagan origin and thus essentially have little to do with the actual residents of Jerusalem/Holy land. They really lacked the understanding of the Levant culture, because the Arab conquest isn't any different but it's much more tolerant than the Crusades imo, they lacked understanding of the Levant culture.

Same argument for Zionism. Zionist headquarters started off in... New York? O.o That has nothing to do with the Middle East whatsoever. Infact, Belfour was British, and Herzl was well, Eastern European, an Ashkenazi Jew, not a Mizrahi Jew (their culture is much more similar to the culture of Palestinians).

So what I resolve to this beautiful holy landish place is actually a one state resolution, with no one BUT Mizrahi Jews (I'm sick and tired of seeing Russians, Americans and Ethiopians everywhere, no offense to them, but it pissed me off how they have a better claim over Jerusalem than I do inspite of the fact that my ancestors have been here even before the Byzantine time) and Palestinians residing, and we'd all compromise to a nationality. That's the only way I can ever see this solution being resolved.

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Have to correct you, Aboo. "Palestinians have said that 180 of those killed were Hamas officials,and the rest civilians". (televised news on haaretz.com.)

Just in general, people should maybe give the Israeli or Palestinian online newspapers a try, since their news is more complete than outside sources. Even Al-Jazeera seems to have pretty bad details,and they are Qatari based.

www.haaretz.com

www.jpost.com

http://english.wafa.ps/

Of course, people can continue reading their own papers, but seeing as all the people I've spoken to in the past few months think that it's Jerusalem, not Gaza, that's being hit by rockets (this includes rockets from before the ceasefire ended), I'm curious to know who the reporters are that are writing such **** in the papers. A lot of the time, reporters are reporting live from Jerusalem about the Gaza situation. Which doesn't mean that the situation is taking place in Jerusalem. It means that they weren't able to get permits to go to Gaza.

Another example of Israeli/Palestinian newspapers being better informed: the Israeli that was killed by a rocket in Ashkelon was an Israeli Arab. How many newspapers are quoting that?

"One Israeli was killed and fourteen others were wounded by a Palestinian Grad missile which exploded near a construction site in the coastal town of Ashkelon.

Most of the victims were construction workers from the Galilee village of Manda and the Bedouin town of Rahat. Arab villages, for those who don't knowFive were considered in serious condition, four sustained moderate wounds, and five suffered light injuries.

The man who was killed was named as 27-year-old construction worker Hani al Mahdi, from the Bedouin village of Aroer. " (source haaretz.com)

This is exactly what happened during the 2nd Lebanon War. Hezbollah fired rockets at the city of Haifa in the north, which then hit Arab houses. Nice aim.

And apparently Egypt is supportive of the military operation. http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1049776.html

"Egypt has informed Israel that it would not object to a limited Israeli military operation in the Gaza Strip, the London-based newspaper Al-Quds al-Arabi reported Wednesday. "

And also, Hamas wasn't allowing people to leave Gaza for medical treatment. The original article was on haaretz.com, couldn't find it again so here's the same one elsewhere: http://www.mywire.com/a/AFP/Egypt-says-Ham...66?&pbl=251

"Egypt on Sunday blamed Hamas for not letting hundreds of Palestinians wounded by Israeli air strikes leave the Gaza Strip for treatment, with dozens of empty ambulances waiting on the border.

More than 270 Palestinians have been killed and 600 wounded since Israel began hammering the Gaza Strip with air strikes on Saturday, but no wounded have yet left via Rafah, the Hamas-ruled territory's only Arab border crossing.

"No one has come in, we don't know why they're closed on the other side," a senior border security official told AFP. Several plane- and truck-loads of aid are also waiting to be allowed into the Gaza Strip, a security official said.

"The wounded are barred from crossing" into Egypt, Foreign Minister Ahmed Abul Gheit said in Cairo, blaming "those who control Gaza. We are waiting for the wounded to cross."

As for peace here: it's a hope, not an expectation.

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Have to correct you, Aboo. "Palestinians have said that 180 of those killed were Hamas officials,and the rest civilians". (televised news on haaretz.com.)

Just in general, people should maybe give the Israeli or Palestinian online newspapers a try, since their news is more complete than outside sources. Even Al-Jazeera seems to have pretty bad details,and they are Qatari based.

If you're talking about AlJAZEERA INTERNATION....like..the one in english...then i agree....

the one is arabic....the original one..is the most detailed one amonsgt all other news channels.....its always updated....but the english one...i totally agree...

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I watched the Kingdom of Heaven yesterday (a historical movie about the crusades) and to me it seems like even after a millenium people are still so blinded by religion that they fail to see that what really matters, that it is not who owns Jerusalem, but that it is the people who reside there. What is the point of a holy place when there are no people to pray in it? If it is God's will for all these people to die in war with each other, what good is God? What good is Jerusalem?

Someday, they'd have to understand that this will never end and that the only way to stop it is to work together as they have done before (why ever did they stop?!).

But as long as these small scale warfare (which occasionally erupt to more extreme violence, as the latest incident) continues to take place, there wont't be any retreat from either sides.

But I seem to have a feeling, that if we are lucky, it might end in this century.

you should watch Zohan too

they are too religious and stubborn

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Like leen said..i dont know where to start from...

its has gone way too far...i mean..i actually cried....when i usually dont...because they're like things we got used to...

and like you guys said...there's noway israel is targetting Hamas only..its targetting everyone in ghazza....

i mean....israel stated officially that these raids are only the FIRST STAGE....of many stages that the State of Israel has agreed on....and i thought,..."WHAT??!?!"....about 400 people dead...and its only the FIRST step....isnt this enough EVIDENCE...that israel is no way targetting HAMAS only?!

i'm sure everyone is watching the news...did you see the destruction caused??! the kids badly killed....and as said previously...this has got nothing to do with religion...this is not an arab world issue anymore...its not an islamic world issue anymore either...this is...an ethical issue...

the White House said that it considers the things israel doing as "self-defence".....seriously?!?!?! "self-defence"....when you're killing hundreds of innocent people..including women and kids....what kind of self defence is this?

Honestly...if someone thinks that what israel is doing is really self-defence...then i'd rather shoot my self.....continious four day air raids...is this self-defence?!?! against what?! against few bombings from Hamas?! that is wrong in a way yeah..

but its like they're defending them selves against some possible nuclear attack...

this is more of extreme inhumaine attack......USING....defence weapons...F16 and F15....

again....if someone really thinks that killing about 100 people everday in the worst ways... "self-defence"...please explain clearly why...

It breaks my heart into pieces...just watching kids between life and death crying all over the place...looking for their parents.....Im just wondering where all those people that kept blabbing about Children's rights and Human right's are?! where are you?!

are you ever going to find a worst and a demanding case from this in our time??

im sorry..i guess i got out of teh subject...but im just too overwhelmed about whats happening...

what's really upsetting me is how cold and ignorant the israeli goverment are being...and im not being biast here just because im a muslim..but im talking from an ethical/human right POV...

how can a human being that know exactly the dilemma they're going through...and the murder they're facing every moment....ever go up on tv and say..."this is self-defence...we have the right to defend our people..(by killing 100 everyday?!?!)....and Hamas should know that its their fault that they started this chaos...."...not only that...look at this..they're "waiting for the arab leaders to courageously put all the blame on Hamas for allowing so many of its citizens to be killed"....does this even make sense?!?!?!

and yeah...thats why The egyptian president was too "afraid" to open up the rafah border gates to rescue people....until he saw his people going outrageous....

this is a question....if the israeli goverment stated officially like i said that this is only the first stage of its planned attack.....does this tell us that they're actually planning to "annihilate" ghazza??

about the egyptian thing...that just got me as-well....it claims that the a'shifa hospital(the only one left usable)...didnt allow patients and injured people to be taken to egypt...

This is from what a surgeon him self said....he said that the injured and patients were the ones that actually..didnt want go to egypt.....and the reason is as clear as day...they've been living on the verge of starvation for 6 months...because not only israel caused that...but because egypt...refused to allow things to be passed on to ghazza from other arab countries...and they were essential food...medications..etc...so...i wouldnt be surprised that the injured them selves refused to go to egypt...

besides..according to the surgeons...some of the patients were badly injured...so the process of transferring them into egypt would be a risk...because they're too injured..physically to be taken anywhere....

the ones that were actually taken to egypt were mostly those who werent physically too injured to be taken but they were those who were in a coma....or those that couldnt really complain...

and about the boat....how inhumaine could they get?! they're hitting a boat...thats full of life essential items...its obvious they'er not carrying any bombs....they had loads of politicians with them.....and journalists...

*sigh*

but anyhow...

it is a huge issue....

and i know i keep saying this...but..,..someone tell me...if this is humaine...go look at the aljazeera the original one....you might not understand...but just....look at the pictures.....they're strong enough to tell the story...no comments needed....

so sorry for writing so much.... <3

oh..and leen...hope all your family is doing alright....none of them are in ghaza i hope...

What is the point of a holy place when there are no people to pray in it? If it is God's will for all these people to die in war with each other, what good is God? What good is Jerusalem?

israelis arent allowing the palestinians to pray in it...its not like they dont want to...

and i wouldnt say that....unless i know exactly in details what the israelis want from jerusalem...

i totally respect your opinion lindieeluieee...but i wouldnt really use the movie to adopt an opinion...

thanks though

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This issue about Palestine and Israel has really take up my time to know about it. I am very curious to know what happened in Palestine and the destruction caused by the Zionist.

I'm in the Palestinian side. I just don't get the idea of why the Israelli dare to kill just so many people in Ghaza. Pity those women and children who are not innocent but have to die at a young age. May God bless them for they die as a shaheed.

I've read the post by Leen, and yes I am agree with your points. Muslims do not have problems with Jews. It is the Zionist that matters.

Now Palestinian and Israelli supporters pointing fingers to each other of being terrorist. Who are actually the terrorist in the first place? Who start the whole conflict first? Who do not want peace?

And I like Mahuta point of view. Obviously that you have a lot more to say but this is space just not enough to say it all.

I totally disagree with what Israel had done to the land of Palestine. It is clear that they act violently and killed many people. If Jews claim about the Holocaust thingy to claim their right to take revenge, the pass is pass. It will remain history. Doesn't we should learn from history? The act of killing will get us to nowhere rather than develop more hatred among people.

No matter what happened, the act of killing innocent people (as what Israel did) should not be the solution. There must be a better way to get all this things clear. The peace between both side will never be achieved if this things continue happen. I pray for the best.

To add up: I just wanted to tell you about this site: www.answer.yahoo.com

anyone have an account there? I do and there has been a lot of questions about this issue. For those who love to debate about this issue, feel free to view the site and voice out your opinions. Correct those people who you think as wrong.

p/s:I've spent my whole night answering questions at the site yesterday. Fuh..

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The way I see it, Egypt is being blamed for something they can't do very much about. They are pissed off at Hamas because Hamas ruined peace talks between itself and Fatah that Egypt was negotiating. I would be too if I was them, because it makes Egypt lose face internationally. They end up looking like fools that can't achieve anything. They have a border crossing with Gaza that they don't want open for whatever reasons they openly say or don't say. Their government has said that they don't want to be burdened with the responsibility of administering Gaza (http://www.almanar.com.lb/NewsSite/NewsDetails.aspx?id=67647&language=en). Which may sound heartless, but seeing as Egypt has a population of over 80 million people, many of whom live beneath the poverty line, it's hardly viable that they take on another 1.5 million people in an occupied territory that they don't control.

On the other hand, you would expect other Arab countries to take some initiative and help out. Egypt and Iran are the only ones that have sent actual physical aid to Gaza. Everyone else seems to willing to urge their people to protest against what's happening, but do very little to actually help.

"Members of the Arab League promised the PA $55 million per month in 2002, but Saudi Arabia is the only country that has paid its part of the commitment regularly. Kuwait and other Persian Gulf countries have paid, but not the entire amount they promised, and other Arab League nations like Algeria paid once or twice, or not at all. And experts say donations from other Muslim nations came with their own strings. Contributions from Arab countries "weren't necessarily tied to need, but more about gaining influence and jockeying for position with other Arab leaders," says Edward Sayre, an assistant professor of economics at Agnes Scott College and an expert on Palestinian labor markets. "It had very little to do with PA needs and wants." (http://www.cfr.org/publication/10499/)

http://www.greenleft.org.au/2002/513/27295

It's nice that countries use the situation to improve their image in the world. Sounds an awful lot like the Marshall Plan to me, with them trying to impress one another. Some countries like Iraq wouldn't be expected to help, seeing as they have a war going on. But it seems that countries claim to be "brothers", and then neglect each other when the world's attention turns away. How charming.

And for the record, the only time people care about Gaza is when it's on the news, like it is now. People forget. I forget, my Palestinian friends forget. They have to live their own lives. See how much you and I care in a few months time when its calm again. All the distress is temporary. Even the UN doesn't pay attention all the time. The only people that wouldn't stop caring are the ones living in Gaza or in the Israeli towns of Sderot/Netivot, since they are confronted with the situation on a daily basis.

Food for thought.

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And for the record, the only time people care about Gaza is when it's on the news, like it is now. People forget. I forget, my Palestinian friends forget. They have to live their own lives. See how much you and I care in a few months time when its calm again. All the distress is temporary. Even the UN doesn't pay attention all the time. The only people that wouldn't stop caring are the ones living in Gaza or in the Israeli towns of Sderot/Netivot, since they are confronted with the situation on a daily basis.

Food for thought.

yes....i agree....but that is what i AM..personally in a way complaining about....because like you said...to the people living in ghaza and netivot....nothing is stopping..nothing is calming down...and its kinda said...because we're like.."if news makes a big fuss,,,,,then we should as well"...when its something concerning an ethical issue...expeciallly in ghaza,,,,

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What I find really sad is the way that the Gaza situation is being made the top story in all the news. In Uganda, 400 people died in a church massacre by the rebel Lord's Resistance Army. They were hacked to death by machetes. 5 people had their lips cut off. The website below is a link to a picture of a person that had their face mutilated, along with the story.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7804470.stm

More people died in Uganda than in Gaza, and who gets more attention? Who died in a worse way? Who is being ignored by the international community? This is exactly what happened in 1994 during the Rwandan genocide. The world looks the other way when it comes to Africa. People care about every other region in the world. When the tsunami hit Asia, people had help. Zimbabwe's cholera epidemic? Their own problem.

The news needs to be more balanced. Due to the lack of coverage given to African issues, people are very ignorant of the entire continent. Students from my school went to Uganda to volunteer in a children's orphanage, and came back saying that the local language was "Ugandian". Unfortunately, they were Americans, which just reinforces the stereotype of them being stupid. Many people still think there's such a language as "African", and don't have any idea where a country like Gabon or Benin is.

Maybe one reason African issues are not shown on tv is because it reminds the world of its own shame. They could do so much, but choose to do little.

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What I find really sad is the way that the Gaza situation is being made the top story in all the news. In Uganda, 400 people died in a church massacre by the rebel Lord's Resistance Army. They were hacked to death by machetes. 5 people had their lips cut off. The website below is a link to a picture of a person that had their face mutilated, along with the story.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7804470.stm

More people died in Uganda than in Gaza, and who gets more attention? Who died in a worse way? Who is being ignored by the international community? This is exactly what happened in 1994 during the Rwandan genocide. The world looks the other way when it comes to Africa. People care about every other region in the world. When the tsunami hit Asia, people had help. Zimbabwe's cholera epidemic? Their own problem.

The news needs to be more balanced. Due to the lack of coverage given to African issues, people are very ignorant of the entire continent. Students from my school went to Uganda to volunteer in a children's orphanage, and came back saying that the local language was "Ugandian". Unfortunately, they were Americans, which just reinforces the stereotype of them being stupid. Many people still think there's such a language as "African", and don't have any idea where a country like Gabon or Benin is.

Maybe one reason African issues are not shown on tv is because it reminds the world of its own shame. They could do so much, but choose to do little.

im starting a new thread about this.....i totally agree...ill say more in the thread...thanks for the idea!!

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Africa seems to be lost cause to the Western world.

What I fail to understand is, when Saddam was there, the US and Mr George Bush were insistent on going after Saddam and giving Iraq freedom when there really wasn't much to do there, people weren't dying from outbreaks of Cholera.

When there is a dictator like Robert Mugabe in Zimbabwe, why isn't the US going in and taking HIM out?

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Israel: Oh dear! Their chunks of rubble are not complemented by smaller chunks of rubble and sand, it appears the floods carried all of the smaller bits out (along with all of their healthcare), let's send more missiles to ensure an even distrubution of rubble chunk size! (and the lack of hospitals and chools)

Palestine: Keep on fighting, we have nothing left to lose, )except for the lives of every innocent citizen living in the Gaza strip, maybe?)!

And the irrationality continues on both sides. Israel has its foot up Palestine's rear, yet Hamas continues to fight, and Israel continues to bomb civilian targets for lack of anything else to bomb.

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