Israel vs Palestine

[~Lc~]

Hamas doesn't represent all the people there. Have you seen paradise now? if you haven't I recommend you watch it because it'll show you the air of frustration and desperation they live in there!

Hamas don't actually have anything to lose! But the people have loads, see they think that they're winning here by keeping on the fight which is a bunch of nonesense! because all they're doing is encouraging a massacre!

and it seems like peace talks are starting, and the Israeli's may show some mercy afterall:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7815929.stm

hopefully it'll carry on

[Mahuta ♥]

Israel: Oh dear! Their chunks of rubble are not complemented by smaller chunks of rubble and sand, it appears the floods carried all of the smaller bits out (along with all of their healthcare), let's send more missiles to ensure an even distrubution of rubble chunk size! (and the lack of hospitals and chools)

Palestine: Keep on fighting, we have nothing left to lose, )except for the lives of every innocent citizen living in the Gaza strip, maybe?)!

And the irrationality continues on both sides. Israel has its foot up Palestine's rear, yet Hamas continues to fight, and Israel continues to bomb civilian targets for lack of anything else to bomb.

What do you want them to do?

To surrender? You think that's going to help? it never did before, did it?

How many times have they surrendered and hoped all the misery would stop, yet everything started again by some excuse Israel came up with.

Hamas is their only hope believe it or not. They, them-selves, said that "Let them kill us, they're going to kill us anyways, what do they want us to do? Give up, no WALLAH, we wont give up, we're not giving up till the last drop of blood". Now, this is wasnt said by Hamas or the gov, this was said by a civilian who just lost her family.

Honestly, after seeing them saying this so bravely, I would never say what you said. (dont take it personally, im just giving my POV)

Don't you think that israel should consider all the innocent people it's killing recklessly? Shouldn't realize that the false excuses it's making arent going to fool people anymore?

I mean it got to a point where yesterday, after they bombed a school, with kids in it, they were like: "oh, we suspected militants to be there", the UN actually went up and said: "there was noway militants could have been there, its a school". What do you say about that?

Every single place they bomb, they say we suspected it is a store of weapons, or full of militants. A masjid, the only place that supposedly, they should feel safe in, they bombed it! Why? "we suspected it would be full of weapons" and i thought, huh?

The hospital, why did they bomb a part of the hospital? What would the hospital have in other than patients and doctors?

After the land invation started, the killing just got more and more brutal. They would shoot someone, and watch them die, when an ambulance is trying to get to that person, but it cant. why? because they were in the way, and refused to leave until they made sure the guy was dead. Now, tell me that's ethical!!! I've seen this live on tv, so Im not making up stuff.

12 members of the rescuers that belong to the hospital were killed. In a funeral, people had a rocket dropped right on them, during a funeral!

I'm not saying Hamas isnt bombing, but compared to what israel is doing, its nothing.

So you in a way blaming Hamas for carrying on, is wrong, because as they said, the civilians them selves dont want to surrender. All they're asking for is support, which they're suppose to be getting.

Sorry for being sort of..'attacky'. I;m just...so upset about it.

Hamas doesn't represent all the people there. Have you seen paradise now? if you haven't I recommend you watch it because it'll show you the air of frustration and desperation they live in there!

Hamas don't actually have anything to lose! But the people have loads, see they think that they're winning here by keeping on the fight which is a bunch of nonesense! because all they're doing is encouraging a massacre!

and it seems like peace talks are starting, and the Israeli's may show some mercy afterall:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7815929.stm

hopefully it'll carry on

Do you honestly think so? "show some mercy"?

Read what I said before this, and tell about the mercy such government would have.

Israel said to the whole world, we're not stopping the bombing, and we're going to increase it depending on the situation.

I'm sorry, but since when did Israel ever show mercy?? Read the history of this conflict and the massacres Israel caused?

I apologize to those of you who live there, like Vvi, I'm talking about the government here when I say Israel.

Oh and the new thing, we're going to stop the firing for 3 hours a day. Oh yeah, as if its going to make a difference, people who want to buy a piece of bread to eat, have to stand in the line for 3 hours, by the time their turn comes. This three hour thing is pointless, and that's why they approved it, just to shut everybody up. I wont be surprised if they ended that agreement out of the blue.

Edited January 8, 2009 by mahuta

[~Lc~]

Do you honestly think so?? "show some mercy"??

Read what I said before this, and tell about the mercy such government would have.

Israel said to the whole world, we're not stopping the bombing, and we're going to increase it depending on the situation.

I'm sorry, but since when did Israel ever show mercy?? Read the history of this conflict and the massacres Israel caused??

I apologize to those of you who live there, like Vvi, I'm talking about the government here when I say Israel.

your method of debate resembles that of my feelions behind!

if you LOOKED at the BBC article I quoted, you would have noticed that they were going to start peace talks and ceased fire! aparently it was a lie because they carried out 60 airstrikes at night! but now that Lebanon's invovled it's just going to get messier !

and don't pull that Arab anti zionist zeal on me! I'm partly Arab as well! we're on the same boat

[Vvi]

Hamas doesn't represent all the people there. Have you seen paradise now? if you haven't I recommend you watch it because it'll show you the air of frustration and desperation they live in there!

Hamas don't actually have anything to lose! But the people have loads, see they think that they're winning here by keeping on the fight which is a bunch of nonesense! because all they're doing is encouraging a massacre!

and it seems like peace talks are starting, and the Israeli's may show some mercy afterall:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7815929.stm

hopefully it'll carry on

I've seen "Paradise Now", sad movie. Another good movie to watch is "The Bubble", it's an Israeli directed film and it's partly in Hebrew, partly in Arabic. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bubble_(2006_film) The Wikipedia summary of it. It's also about a suicide bomber who falls in love with an Israeli in Tel Aviv and lives there secretly with no permit. They met at a checkpoint, where the Israeli was a soldier there. For those of you who have problems with gay people, the love story is between 2 gay men. Proof that Israelis can make good movies, and that they can show empathy (which some people here are saying that they are incapable of).

And how does Lebanon getting involved help anyone? Like Lc said, peace talks are happening as we speak. What will be the point of achieving a ceasefire in Gaza if Lebanon will start another war where it's people will die? A Hamas spokesman said they wouldn't fire rockets during the 3 hour lull each day (remains to be seen if all Hamas members follow this, but it's a step forward). And a 3 hour period of no rockets is better than nothing. It's amazing that people find cause to complain about everything. Both sides are doing something right, and they're not being commended for it.

Think about Gaza in terms of your country. If Russia or Sweden had been firing rockets at Finland for 8 years, I would have bombed them too. No country can allow itself to be under attack without responding. What if Algeria had been firing rockets at Tunisia for years? What do you think the US would do if Mexico started firing rockets? Sit back and watch simply because Mexico is a developing country and in a worse state than them? I don't think so. It's not about who has more people dying, it's about the principles of attacking another country. The scale of the attack here may be disproportional, and rockets may be misdirected, but the motivation behind it is evident.

Of course the humanitarian crisis in Gaza is bad; of course the border closures don't help the Gazan people. It's a vicious circle of political ideology, fear, hatred and misunderstanding. Most Israelis have never met a Palestinian, unless they live in Jerusalem, and most Palestinians have never met an Israeli. People build up exaggerated misconceptions of each other, and are afraid because they are taught to be. Israelis are taught that all Arabs want to kill them, and that they don't want peace. Palestinians are taught the same thing. In the Intifada years, cars with Israeli number plates were set on fire in Bethlehem (and they probably belonged to Arab Israelis or foreigners). A week ago, orthodox rabbis here were putting up advertisements telling people not to employ Arabs. Ridiculous.

And unfortunately, civilians die in every war. There has never been a war in the world where only soldiers or militants have died. In Iraq, civilians die every day and people make no fuss about it. I read a quote from an Iraqi, who bitterly said that "Iraqi blood is the cheapest blood to spill". In the NATO bombing of Yugoslavia, civilians died. In WWII, Germany bombed British civilian homes. Hamas also fires rockets at civilian homes in Israel. There are no military bases in the cities they target.

And as a point about Zionism, which is an overused word: not all Israelis are Zionist, just like all Arabs aren't terrorists. Zionism refers to the people that believe Israel should be the home of the Jewish people. It doesn't always mean that they want the West Bank and Gaza to be part of that state, although it can in the cases of religious settlers. And settlers are not all religious freaky people that are radicals. My driving teacher lives in a settlement outside Jerusalem, and when I asked him why he moved there from Jerusalem, he said that housing here is too expensive to afford. Which is true. Jerusalem is the only city in the region where more people leave it every year than arrive here. Students and young people can't afford to live here.

[SharkSpider]

Obviously there are strong feelings going around this topic, but to blame this war on anything but the combined attitudes of BOTH nations would be a major oversight.

The Palestinians declared war on Israel the day it was declared a country, and haven't let up since then. Israel's been fighting for survival for over fifty years. Now, Israel's on top, they've pulled through and pretty much annihilated any chance of actually being destroyed. The war is over, and the Palestinians don't have a chance in hell at beating Israel, at the moment.

The facts remain that Israel is in a position to say "don't chuck bombs." They have all the military might and more to back it up, and they're so entrenched in Gaza that they have the ability to crush resistence with an iron fist. To all those of you who want to tell Israel to "let up," then why don't you consider what will happen if Israel withdraws, and allows Hamas to act without opposition. If they refuse to let up, even under harsh punishment, then the answer isn't to stop punishing.

[Leen]

If Israel calls in the UN or gets International intervention when Hamas were acting up, then certainly we wouldn't have this mess. I'm extremely bitter about how the whole thing went down the drain. Hamas was losing power, hence it wanted to create a "crisis" in Gaza to ensure that the Gazans wouldn'\t stop and think that there's something seriously messed up about the Hamas regime (after the Hajj scandal). Israel, of course, responded to that, and created a crisis. Hamas popularity boosted in Gaza, and that's essentially what they wanted. Nothing to do with wanting to wipe out Israel or whatever or an Islamic state, they just want power and to establish a totalitarianism regime. That's the way I see it...

Now if Israel did NOT lead such a horrific bombing on Gaza and worsened the living conditions, instead gotten international forces to deal with Hamas's misbehaving, Hamas would have more than likely lost even more support. Egypt and Fatah were quick to condemn Hamas any way, so I don't see why it would be an impossible procedure.

Yes, I'm a very, very bitter person.

I'm extremely surprised though why the Hajj scandal wasn't made out to be a big deal since it was the lowest of Hamas's career when facing with the Arab World. But keep in mind, this is all through my opinion and I'm just stating what could have done best.

And to be honest, the whole deal with Hamas has been bombing for 8 years is reasonable. It's not like Israel never responded before, and it's not like Israel hasn't been doing its own thing in the West Bank. 8 years would also include the Intifada, and we all know how glorious those years were......

[Mahuta ♥]

To all those of you who want to tell Israel to "let up," then why don't you consider what will happen if Israel withdraws, and allows Hamas to act without opposition. If they refuse to let up, even under harsh punishment, then the answer isn't to stop punishing.

Hello?! Are you comparing Palestine's position in the world with Israel's? Dont you know that the backbone of Israel is the US? Do you know what that means?

The Palestinians declared war on Israel the day it was declared a country, and haven't let up since then.

Are you blaming them? Someone comes over, a cuontry that has got nothing to do with palestine, comes and goes like: "ok, this isnt your country anymore, we're getting a bunch of muslims scattered all over the world, and we're going to call it Islam state." Now tell me that's fair,and palestinians dont have the right to fight!

Israel's been fighting for survival for over fifty years

Are you seriously saying this?

You're making it sound like the victim, when palestinians were KICKED OUT of their houses so that israelis could live in it. They still suffer, they're scattered all over the world now. Have you ever thought of the principal it self? Kicking out people that lived in peace so that a new state is made there? Just ethically, lets talk IB here, is it ethical to actually do that?

I think it would be more correct, if we said Palestine has been fighting for survival over fifty years. It has been fighting for its CERTAIN RIGHT to get back their houses.

No offence, but I feel like crying everytime I read this post.

The facts remain that Israel is in a position to say "don't chuck bombs."

No its not, it said infront of the whole world, that its plannign under any circumstances to cease bombing if Hamas doesnt surrender. What does that mean? That means Palestine become under the authority of Israel...what does that mean? It means theres no such thing as palestine anymore, which in turn means that their primary objective has been fulfilled. It's supposedly saying "dont chuck bombs", when its bombing randomly on ghaza now. Does that tell us anything about it being willing to actualyl cease fire?

They have all the military might and more to back it up, and they're so entrenched in Gaza that they have the ability to crush resistence with an iron fist.

Exactly, that's what they're planning on. Killing people, shooting them, watching them as they die, stand in the way of ambulances and rescuers not allowing them to get to the injured...until they die. Any gathering...which nowadays are only funerals, they bomb that. I know i said this before, but looks like it hasnt been read. Doesnt that say something about the determination to 'crush resistance with an iron fist"?

Now, Israel's on top, they've pulled through and pretty much annihilated any chance of actually being destroyed. The war is over, and the Palestinians don't have a chance in hell at beating Israel, at the moment.

Uhh...dont say this, because by saying that, you're basically stating that there's no such thing as palestine anymore, and I know for sure, that palestine is going to get its land back, without doubt.

Israel has always been on top, because mainly the US has been supporting it throughuot the 5 decades.

and no the war isn't really over. One: Israel didnt cease bombing. two: Palestinians are still victims, and its about time the world wakes up and realises what israel has just done to thousands of innocent civilians.

I'm not forcing my opinion on you, although I'm talking from an ethical POV. I just want you, between you and your Conscious, to think about this whole conflict from the beginning till now, from balanced sources, then decide.

EDIT: to make it less attacky and respective and calm.

Edited January 8, 2009 by mahuta

[~Lc~]

And unfortunately, civilians die in every war. There has never been a war in the world where only soldiers or militants have died. In Iraq, civilians die every day and people make no fuss about it. I read a quote from an Iraqi, who bitterly said that "Iraqi blood is the cheapest blood to spill". In the NATO bombing of Yugoslavia, civilians died. In WWII, Germany bombed British civilian homes. Hamas also fires rockets at civilian homes in Israel. There are no military bases in the cities they target.

Israel's taken this war as a target practice for it's airplanes, what justification does it have to attack the civilians? in the wars you're mentioned before the people at war there did not act all innocent and say they were just targetting the "extremists" who were bombing them, Israeli army militants constantly are quoted in the media of "targetting Hamas", while all their killing are civilians! if you want to look at it from a discourse point of view, all that's doing is suggesting that the whole of Gaza, civilians and none are part of Hamas! There is no justification of attacking unsuspecting innocent people with GREAT FORCE, and I don't believe in this "all is fair in love and war" bull. There is no justification for it! same as there isn't for Hamas inflating their ego because of a stupid surprise attack they preformed 17 days ago, which lead to a merciless massacre of the people they claim to be freeing!

and if you all wish to notice, in every post here people have mentioned Israel and Hamas as the sides of this war, not Israel and Plestine. There was no national zeal, or cry of freedom called upon before this war, there was no promise of indipendence, and a want to fight for a cause! NOOO! so this is not a wanted war obviously!

Hamas was losing power' date=' hence it wanted to create a "crisis" in Gaza to ensure that the Gazans wouldn'\t stop and think that there's something seriously messed up about the Hamas regime (after the Hajj scandal).[/quote']

The quote from Hamas in the BBC said that they did it because they had nothing to lose and they wanted freedom for their people.

[Mahuta ♥]

your method of debate resembles that of my feelions behind!

if you LOOKED at the BBC article I quoted, you would have noticed that they were going to start peace talks and ceased fire! aparently it was a lie because they carried out 60 airstrikes at night! but now that Lebanon's invovled it's just going to get messier !

and don't pull that Arab anti zionist zeal on me! I'm partly Arab as well! we're on the same boat

Is this a positive or a negative reply? LOL

I was just saying things in my heart.

But dont you think that this 'peace talk' thingie has been done before, and it didnt do any good?

Israel has an objective, and its obvious, all this 'peace tale' is to shut the world up. It is as clear as daylight.

Lebanon being involved did mess things up, but it is the only country that took action against this merciless attack on ghaza. Im not saying 'let them kill the israelis', no, because they're people just like us. But it got messier for the israelis because its threatening the success of their mission. For the palestinians however, its somehow a relief to feel that others are feeling for you and willing to fight for YOUR survival(not the israelis, shark)

I'm actually glad to see a supporter, makes me feel im not on my own feeling for them this much.

[Vvi]

I'm not forcing my opinion on you, although I'm talking from an ethical POV. I just want you, between you and your Conscious, to think about this whole conflict from the beginning till now, from balanced sources, then decide.

You're not forcing your opinion on us? Every sentence you write has several "?!?!?!?!?!" 's after it. You write in Caps Lock all the time. Basically, you're screaming in writing at all the people on this forum who have anything to say that doesn't match your opinion. Leen is a Palestinian, which means it's actually her people in the conflict. Some people might consider all Arabs to be one people, but they are still divided by geography and nationality. But Leen's not writing LIKE THIS all over the website. Can you please calm down so people can return to having normal conversations about the issue? Your constant addition of drama makes you seem like an extremist. I don't know if you're trying to give off that image or not.

And as for "balanced sources", you don't seem to give any. Other people here quote sources from both Hamas and Israel, and say both positive and negative things about both of them. All your ideas are one-sided.

You might be "overwhelmed" by the situation, but unfortunately you're just coming off as a fanatic.

[Mahuta ♥]

You're not forcing your opinion on us? Every sentence you write has several "?!?!?!?!?!" 's after it. You write in Caps Lock all the time. Basically, you're screaming in writing at all the people on this forum who have anything to say that doesn't match your opinion. Leen is a Palestinian, which means it's actually her people in the conflict. Some people might consider all Arabs to be one people, but they are still divided by geography and nationality. But Leen's not writing LIKE THIS all over the website. Can you please calm down so people can return to having normal conversations about the issue? Your constant addition of drama makes you seem like an extremist. I don't know if you're trying to give off that image or not.

And as for "balanced sources", you don't seem to give any. Other people here quote sources from both Hamas and Israel, and say both positive and negative things about both of them. All your ideas are one-sided.

You might be "overwhelmed" by the situation, but unfortunately you're just coming off as a fanatic.

Apologies if you saw that as 'screaming', I'll go change it, although I did apologize previously.

As for the sources, I was talking about the history, not the current incidents, that we see every day.

And no, lol, got nothing to do with them. Although I really dont see what drama you're talkign about, but I'm just going over it again as a respect for you.

[Leen]

The quote from Hamas in the BBC said that they did it because they had nothing to lose and they wanted freedom for their people.

Yeahhhhhh, and Hamas claimed to be muslim while they banned muslim pilgrames from the Hajj... most of the time political leaders lie to the public if you didn't know that. Obviously they aren't going to be oh sure we were losing power so we want chaos!

And Mahuta, I honestly think you should calm down about the situation. You're really presenting radical ideas and that's not the way to go things about. I think you should take a "time-out" before you get passionate about these subjects, it usually clouds are judgments and opinions.

[Mahuta ♥]

Ok, sorry then.

[~Lc~]

Yeahhhhhh, and Hamas claimed to be muslim while they banned muslim pilgrames from the Hajj... most of the time political leaders lie to the public if you didn't know that. Obviously they aren't going to be oh sure we were losing power so we want chaos!

And Mahuta, I honestly think you should calm down about the situation. You're really presenting radical ideas and that's not the way to go things about. I think you should take a "time-out" before you get passionate about these subjects, it usually clouds are judgments and opinions.

My point wasn't that Hamas are doing this for the sake of the people, sorry for not being clear in my reply. My point is that Hamas didn't start this just because of a claim to fame! but because they want to start a rebellion, or retaliation or what ever against the Israeli's and they claimed that losing civilian lives in the process didn't mean anything to them. Although Fati7 have been sitting on their asses in the government and doing nothing for the progress of the palestinian issue, there no reason to go around throwing bombs left right and center! there are other means of starting rebellions. And a civil war is the LAST thing they need over there!

Is this a positive or a negative reply? LOL

I was just saying things in my heart.

But dont you think that this 'peace talk' thingie has been done before, and it didnt do any good?

Israel has an objective, and its obvious, all this 'peace tale' is to shut the world up. It is as clear as daylight.

Lebanon being involved did mess things up, but it is the only country that took action against this merciless attack on ghaza. Im not saying 'let them kill the israelis', no, because they're people just like us. But it got messier for the israelis because its threatening the success of their mission. For the palestinians however, its somehow a relief to feel that others are feeling for you and willing to fight for YOUR survival(not the israelis, shark)

I'm actually glad to see a supporter, makes me feel im not on my own feeling for them this much.

it was a negative comment to your way of debating

this objective you talk about is based on a belief you have of them, which must have been created

You're not forcing your opinion on us? Every sentence you write has several "?!?!?!?!?!" 's after it. You write in Caps Lock all the time. Basically, you're screaming in writing at all the people on this forum who have anything to say that doesn't match your opinion. Leen is a Palestinian, which means it's actually her people in the conflict. Some people might consider all Arabs to be one people, but they are still divided by geography and nationality. But Leen's not writing LIKE THIS all over the website. Can you please calm down so people can return to having normal conversations about the issue? Your constant addition of drama makes you seem like an extremist. I don't know if you're trying to give off that image or not.

Not being Palestinian has nothing to do with the effect anything has on anyone! being a Humanitarian I can tell you this hurts me a lot, seeing that I can't do anything but rally around and hope someone will listen to us saying just ****ing stop! if he wants to have passion about something she believes in let her! the ?!?!?! isn't the problem with her argument, his inability to lacknowledge other people's arguments does come off as very immature though, I agree she needs to form better objective arguments. Then again I'm not in the Arab region at the moment, and I know if I was the constant cursing towards the Israeli's and general air of frustration would get to my head. So try and be a little more understanding yourself...

[Mahuta ♥]

Thanks a lot, and yeah about the objective, I do see your POV .

oh and I'm Maha:)...a girl;)

Edited January 8, 2009 by mahuta

[~Lc~]

lol crap not the misassuming of the gender again I do this all the time! sorry

[Graeme]

Nice to see that Israel has no regard for international law.. and we are letting them get away with it. Makes me so sick.

Haha. I love how Israel is still trying to claim its the victim.

[~Lc~]

Nice to see that Israel has no regard for international law.. and we are letting them get away with it. Makes me so sick.

Haha. I love how Israel is still trying to claim its the victim.

Who is We exactly Graeme? and how can we do anything? can the UN for example take a whole nation to court for not obeying international laws?

[~Lc~]

On another note:

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/ISL389959.htm

how credible do you guys think this is?

[Abu]

On another note:

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/ISL389959.htm

how credible do you guys think this is?

It's the Reuters so it has to be credible, doesn't mean that anything will actually happen. Emotions are high everywhere but that doesn't mean everyone's gonna have their arse in the Gaza Strip.