Israel vs Palestine

[Vvi]

"An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth?" Is that what you're promoting by saying that since the Israelis took land away from Palestinians, that Palestinians should do the same? That makes them as bad as the people they are fighting against. If that is the case, "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth makes the whole world blind".Annihilating one population is ridiculous, stupid and pointless. It's something that Hitler or Stalin would have done.

Israelis and Palestinians are equal. Both have a claim to the land, and they're just going to have to learn to share the same way little kids in pre-school get taught how to share. It might take another 500 years for that to get through, but one day people will be tired of fighting. One day, people will be willing to compromise and settle for part of what they originally wanted. If either side is stupid enough to keep pushing for only what is in their best interests, and ignore the other side completely, then they're going to lose out.

I "keep saying things without actually realizing that palestinians were once in the exact same position before. You're totally ignoring that." Beacuse of course, I'm totally ignoring the situation in the city I live in. I have absolutely no idea how the Palestinians think, even though there are 5 of them in my class. After living here for 3 years, I'm still walking around in a sheltered bubble, as naive as all the people that live outside the country that have never been here and yet pretend to know what's really going on. Because I'm just that stupid.

My honest opinion on what's going on? Both sides are to blame. Unlike some people, I can see both sides of the argument. Quite honestly, I would say that it's not my country and therefore it's not my place to take sides. If only other people would do the same. I know people that have been deported by Israeli authorities for being too actively pro-Palestinian. And conversely, a Palestinian bishop made sure that two people in my dad's company lost their work contracts because they were pro-Israeli. Having my entire family lose their visas, and my parents lose their jobs over something like a public show of opinion is not how I want my final year in school to end.

And I wonder how strongly you would object, if at all, if tomorrow 50 Gazan suicide bombers blew themselves up in different locations around Israel, killing only Jews? That would also be a massacre, on the same scale as Gaza. Hundreds of people would die. Same situation, reversed. Would that be justified because they are defending their country, the same way that Israel is defending its 250,000 citizens living in the South? It's the easiest thing in the world to condemn another country for "defending" its people, but as soon as its your country or anyone you support, its completely fine for them to defend themselves. No questions asked.

An interesting question for everyone: what should Israel have done instead of invading Gaza? I thought about them opening all the crossings for a few days to see if Hamas stopped firing rockets. And if Hamas didn't, then Israel would have the right to close them again, seeing as Hamas didn't follow through on their promises. My solution. Does anyone else have a better idea, not involving sitting around watching people on one side of the border get hit by rockets every day and the people on the other side die because of borders being closed? Something that doesn't involve the idea of Israel saying "Hey, here's an idea! Today, we stop being a state, move all our people out and hand over everything we own to the Palestinians because, well, they want it."

Because the world isn't a pity party. What you want, you don't always get. My class would have wanted peace so that we could finish our IB without worrying about whether we will get evacuated or not. The Israelis would have wanted an end to the rockets so that they don't have to run to shelters every 20 mins in Sderot. And the Palestinians would have wanted an end to the isolation of Gaza, and freedom of movement. What we all got was a war. Well, guess what? We all got dealt a pretty ****ty hand then. But we're gonna make the best out of it, and continue living our lives. Because by sitting and crying in our rooms about how many people are dying every day, we don't help anyone. At least if me and Leen pass our IB exams and go to university to study politics, we can someday make a difference. At least she has a chance of returning here and joining government, and doing something. Because everyone talks about peace, but does nothing for it. Nothing other than fuelling hatred worldwide by condemning either Israel or Palestine. Get an objective viewpoint first, or if you can't do that then at least get some information about the other side of the argument (whichever one you're not hearing). Then start mouthing off about the situation, in a balanced manner.

Edited January 12, 2009 by Vvi

[Abu]

This is in French: http://www.lemonde.fr/societe/article/2009...#ens_id=1106055

It says that people are being anti-Semitic and attacking synagogues.

It's not a religious fight and it's not the Crusades all over again, people need to understand that!

[Mahuta ♥]

My honest opinion on what's going on? Both sides are to blame. Unlike some people, I can see both sides of the argument. Quite honestly, I would say that it's not my country and therefore it's not my place to take sides. If only other people would do the same. I know people that have been deported by Israeli authorities for being too actively pro-Palestinian. And conversely, a Palestinian bishop made sure that two people in my dad's company lost their work contracts because they were pro-Israeli. Having my entire family lose their visas, and my parents lose their jobs over something like a public show of opinion is not how I want my final year in school to end.

And I wonder how strongly you would object, if at all, if tomorrow 50 Gazan suicide bombers blew themselves up in different locations around Israel, killing only Jews? That would also be a massacre, on the same scale as Gaza. Hundreds of people would die. Same situation, reversed. Would that be justified because they are defending their country, the same way that Israel is defending its 250,000 citizens living in the South? It's the easiest thing in the world to condemn another country for "defending" its people, but as soon as its your country or anyone you support, its completely fine for them to defend themselves. No questions asked.

One major point I agree on is what you said about the suicide bombers. I'm totally against that, and Islam in nowy shape or form does it encourages this. AT ALL. And I see your point and I agree, if they do that, I will most certainly be against the bombing.

Every country has the right to defend their people. But Vvi, I'm against the way Israel is doing it. Honestly, if it involved militants, I wouldnt really say that much. But its involving hundreds of children that are dying for nothing wrong they did, women as well.

I guess you're right about worrying of having rockets bombed at you anytime, but isnt that worse with palestinians? I'm not saying you;re wrong, I'm jsut saying its worse in ghaza.

Again, if it was between militants, I wouldnt say much. But innocent children and babies? I;m not so sure.

As-well as the phosphorous bombs that arent allowed internationalyl yet.

(I have a lesson now,lol. I will continue later)

[Leen]

An interesting question for everyone: what should Israel have done instead of invading Gaza? I thought about them opening all the crossings for a few days to see if Hamas stopped firing rockets. And if Hamas didn't, then Israel would have the right to close them again, seeing as Hamas didn't follow through on their promises. My solution. Does anyone else have a better idea, not involving sitting around watching people on one side of the border get hit by rockets every day and the people on the other side die because of borders being closed? Something that doesn't involve the idea of Israel saying "Hey, here's an idea! Today, we stop being a state, move all our people out and hand over everything we own to the Palestinians because, well, they want it."

I think if they got international intervention at the start it would have gone better, also I would think that letting in food, energy supplies and medicine. If the bombing does not stop, then I would suggest that Israel temporary evacuate the close cities temporary, while allow international intervention without the use of weapons, as in either bring Hamas to court. Sooner or later, Hamas would end up looking like the bad guys and lose their power because people were getting pissed off at them any way at that point. Also I think condemnation from Palestinian National Authority would help.

If they seriously do not stop after all of that, then I would suggest pulling out all the settlements from West Bank. Then Hamas would seriously have no point in launching rockets, if they still do, I would suggest the evacuation of civilians, and then Hamas should be hit back. But by then, if I am correct, the people would have thrown out the Hamas.

[Mahuta ♥]

"An interesting question for everyone: what should Israel have done instead of invading Gaza? I thought about them opening all the crossings for a few days to see if Hamas stopped firing rockets. And if Hamas didn't, then Israel would have the right to close them again, seeing as Hamas didn't follow through on their promises. My solution. Does anyone else have a better idea, not involving sitting around watching people on one side of the border get hit by rockets every day and the people on the other side die because of borders being closed? Something that doesn't involve the idea of Israel saying "Hey, here's an idea! Today, we stop being a state, move all our people out and hand over everything we own to the Palestinians because, well, they want it."

As I said previously, if I had authority, I'd let militants fight, as long as innocent people arent involved in this, including israelis.

To support my point, I'm totally against what Israel is using now from the phosphorous bombs(I'm not sure if i said this before )

Because the world isn't a pity party. What you want, you don't always get. My class would have wanted peace so that we could finish our IB without worrying about whether we will get evacuated or not. The Israelis would have wanted an end to the rockets so that they don't have to run to shelters every 20 mins in Sderot. And the Palestinians would have wanted an end to the isolation of Gaza, and freedom of movement. What we all got was a war. Well, guess what? We all got dealt a pretty ****ty hand then. But we're gonna make the best out of it, and continue living our lives. Because by sitting and crying in our rooms about how many people are dying every day, we don't help anyone. At least if me and Leen pass our IB exams and go to university to study politics, we can someday make a difference. At least she has a chance of returning here and joining government, and doing something.

Thats why I keep saying, Im not blaming any of the citizens, at all. Im purely blaming the government, and I guess I'd agree right now on blaming the palestinian government as well. Citizens are not to be blamed. I honestly understand your first point, and this might sound fake, but to some extent I would see you in the same position as palestinian citizens. Only that, you're being threatened by all the rockets hamas is firing, whereas palestinians in ghaza are passed that stage and are being killed. Either way, all are innocent. I truely think both governments should deal with it without involving citizens.

Because everyone talks about peace, but does nothing for it.

I fully agree Vvi, yes, everyone.

Edited January 13, 2009 by mahuta

[Mr. Shiver]

Because everyone talks about peace, but does nothing for it.

Haven't really been keeping up with this thread, but I would like to point out that much of the world's economy runs on war. If we're even going to begin to be able to think about peace, the first step would have to be to reform the system. And is anyone really prepared to start doing that?

[Abu]

As I said previously, if I had authority, I'd let militants fight, as long as innocent people arent involved in this, including israelis.

To support my point, I'm totally against what Israel is using now from the phosphorous bombs(I'm not sure if i said this before )

You would let militants fight? What use is that going to be?

Haven't really been keeping up with this thread, but I would like to point out that much of the world's economy runs on war. If we're even going to begin to be able to think about peace, the first step would have to be to reform the system. And is anyone really prepared to start doing that?

How does a majority of the world economy run on war?

[CodeRed15]

No offense to anyone guys but I think the root of all these problems is religion. If there was no religion, the world would be a better place and there would be so such conflicts at all.

[Mr. Shiver]

How does a majority of the world economy run on war?

I can only respond with the following question: Where do armed forces get their weapons from?

And I said "much of", not "a majority". Couldn't tell you the exact numbers.

Edited January 14, 2009 by Mr. Shiver

[Mahuta ♥]

Haven't really been keeping up with this thread, but I would like to point out that much of the world's economy runs on war. If we're even going to begin to be able to think about peace, the first step would have to be to reform the system. And is anyone really prepared to start doing that?

Dont they keep blabbing about peace? So what you're saying is keeping our economy the same is much more important than saving the lives of innocent people? Wether they are palestinians or Israelis.

You would let militants fight? What use is that going to be?

Well they seem to be insisting on fighting. If they got to the point where they really want to fight like crazy, dont involve citizens or anything of that sort. Now today Israel bombed a grave yard. How the hell are they going to find hamas extremists there? I really dont know. Similarly, how is hamas going to target militants if its firing at villages? Citizens ashouldnt be involved under any circumstances.

The only use is that to save whats left of the citizens.

No offense to anyone guys but I think the root of all these problems is religion. If there was no religion, the world would be a better place and there would be so such conflicts at all.

We talked about this previously. Religion has got nothing to do with all this. The war on vietnam, Japan..etc, they had nothing to do with religion. Probably not the same, but still.

This is all about politics now, in fact, its a human right issue more than anything. Why cant a normal ordinary citizen leave peacefully without having to worry about a rocket being fired or a bomb being dropped? Why cant some like the palestinians leave peacefulyl without worrying about losing thei organs and their skin from the white phosporous bombs?

Its nothing to do with religion.

If you have a good argument aganist this, go ahead. For the time being, this is what some people say and its actually invalid to whats going on.

I'll wait for your reply.

but I would like to point out that much of the world's economy runs on war

Its true, which is why it seems to me that countries like the US is absolutly happy with whats going on, desptie all the talking it RARELY does about peace. Its up to those countries to chose, which is going to be directly related to their ethics.

Edited January 14, 2009 by Aboo

[Mr. Shiver]

So what you're saying is keeping our economy the same is much more important than saving the lives of innocent people? Wether they are palestinians or Israelis.

I never said anything of the sort. I was simply pointing to the root of the problem, which is certainly not religion.

Edited January 14, 2009 by Mr. Shiver

[Mahuta ♥]

Oh,ok Im sorry. Well lets just consider that as a reponse to the statement to whoever is going to read this,lol.

[Mahuta ♥]

Something that just clicked my mind.

Everyone keeps blaming Hamas for being the main cause of the massacre in Ghaza. Israeli government doesnt consider itself guilty

or wrong for killing 1130 people in 3 weeks, that is about 57 people daily.

If it doesnt take the blame for this, why doesnt it take the blame for putting its OWN citizens in danger?

Again, everyday, my point is proven to be right, why did the israeli army bomb the UNRWA store, that had tons of food supplies,

medical supplies and abit of fuel to keep whoever is left alive. All these are essnetial things, what message is it trying to get across

by doing this? It claims its a mistake.

Targetting a whole bunch of journalist and press people. They also claim it is a mistake.

I have always thought its doing this because it sees us, 'weak' and have nothing to do. But apparently no, it is ignoring the UN's

decision. Normally this results in penalization. But it didnt. They're targetting international volunteers and worker with the UN.

I dont get this. Why?!

If it claims it only wants to target Hamas 'extremists', what's all this?

Levney, Olmert and Barack decided yesterday after a meeting that they're not going to cease bombing.

Seems like NOTHING is going to get them to stop. Does that mean they wont until they wipe Ghaza off?

[hanatarash]

I never said anything of the sort. I was simply pointing to the root of the problem, which is certainly not religion.

If its not religion, what is it?

[moneyfaery]

If its not religion, what is it?

I read like, half a line of something posted ^ up there.

It has to do with the economy. War generates productivity and busyness, as weapons don't just materialize out of air. In the end, war is about politics and power, not about believing what you believe is 'right', although I'm sure that could certainly be a factor. However, it seems unlikely that a group would initiate war simply because of a belief, rather than the possibility that they may gain something by instigating war.

[~Lc~]

No offense to anyone guys but I think the root of all these problems is religion. If there was no religion, the world would be a better place and there would be so such conflicts at all.

not really, if there was no religion in the world, people would find something else to become fanatic about and religiously believe in to the extent of thinking everyone else is wrong and deserves to die for being wrong. This existed in both left and right wing politics, left being in communism, right being in carrying national identity or patriotism. Religion is the issue in this case, but saying its abolishment will solve everything is a bit ignorant

[Mahuta ♥]

I read like, half a line of something posted ^ up there.

It has to do with the economy. War generates productivity and busyness, as weapons don't just materialize out of air. In the end, war is about politics and power, not about believing what you believe is 'right', although I'm sure that could certainly be a factor. However, it seems unlikely that a group would initiate war simply because of a belief, rather than the possibility that they may gain something by instigating war.

I agree, real life example the US invation of Iraq, its all about economy. Oil specifically.

[heartworthy]

I really, really suggest that everyone watch the documentary Promises. It was filmed in 2001 before the most recent incident, but basically it documents seven children who live no more than about 20 minutes from each other, but have to live completely different lives. The kids range from super-conservative Israelis to children living in a Palestinian refugee camp. It's a touching film and is so interesting because it doesn't try to be political, but gives the perspective of the kids and how they feel.

[Mahuta ♥]

Is it subjective? Just asking,lol.

[KiwiFruit]

Sorry to butt in but I'm in favor of Israel as they were attacked first. Also they are kind of like the small country in the middle of countries that want to 'exterminate' them. I mean Isreal cant take **** from people, if America got attacked America would retaliate (911 as an example).