122 replies to this topic

[Aboo]

~Lc~, on Jan 9 2009, 08:04 AM, said:

On another note:
http://www.alertnet....k/ISL389959.htm

how credible do you guys think this is?

It's the Reuters so it has to be credible, doesn't mean that anything will actually happen. Emotions are high everywhere but that doesn't mean everyone's gonna have their arse in the Gaza Strip.

[~Lc~]

I don't know I head the beach is nice there

ok inappropriate I'm sorry
anyway read the rest of the article, looks like it's just an excuse for afghani's to hate Americans more sounds like fun things are happening everywhere!

[Leen]

~Lc~, on Jan 8 2009, 11:58 PM, said:

My point wasn't that Hamas are doing this for the sake of the people, sorry for not being clear in my reply. My point is that Hamas didn't start this just because of a claim to fame! but because they want to start a rebellion, or retaliation or what ever against the Israeli's and they claimed that losing civilian lives in the process didn't mean anything to them. Although Fati7 have been sitting on their asses in the government and doing nothing for the progress of the palestinian issue, there no reason to go around throwing bombs left right and center! there are other means of starting rebellions. And a civil war is the LAST thing they need over there!

My point wasn't a claim to fame, my point was to gain back power.
Alright, why would they want to start a rebellion if they technically still controlled Gaza Strip?
Fateh has been sitting around and been doing nothing, but Hamas's top leaders have tried to evacuate Gaza strip and all have gone in hiding the moment Gaza was attacked, shows how patriotic and how much they care about the people right?

If I was a leader and I wanted to start a rebellion, you can count on me for being the person on the first row of the front, not like those Hamas wussies who have gone into hiding. Ugh.

[KiwiFruit]

http://www.boston.co...gaza_strip.html.

Amazing and graphic pictures that will move you.

[~Lc~]

Leen, on Jan 9 2009, 07:45 AM, said:

My point wasn't a claim to fame, my point was to gain back power.
Alright, why would they want to start a rebellion if they technically still controlled Gaza Strip?
Fateh has been sitting around and been doing nothing, but Hamas's top leaders have tried to evacuate Gaza strip and all have gone in hiding the moment Gaza was attacked, shows how patriotic and how much they care about the people right?

If I was a leader and I wanted to start a rebellion, you can count on me for being the person on the first row of the front, not like those Hamas wussies who have gone into hiding. Ugh.

so we both agree that Hamas are idiotic ****heads. Good
Rebellion against the Israeli's Leen, fight the cause, call for Jihad against al Sahyouneye! you know the drill, we've all heard of it in Arabic class... they don't just want the Gaza strip, they want the whole of Israel/Palestine back!

[Leen]

~Lc~, on Jan 9 2009, 03:43 PM, said:

so we both agree that Hamas are idiotic ****heads. Good
Rebellion against the Israeli's Leen, fight the cause, call for Jihad against al Sahyouneye! you know the drill, we've all heard of it in Arabic class... they don't just want the Gaza strip, they want the whole of Israel/Palestine back!

I don't understand why there are so many non-Palestinian extremists. Don't get me wrong, I hate the war on gaza, and I hate the Israeli government and their discrimination. But that hatred doesn't blind me. Hamas is not calling for a Jihad (and we all know Jihad is not a holy war), because if it is, man they are pretty sucky muslims if you ask me. And wanting the whole of Israel as Palestine is a bit too late.

As a Palestinian who probably saw more disaster in the conflict than all of you put together, I'm kind of shocked how extreme some of you can be about this Palestine/Israel issue especially since I'm willing to guess none of you have been to either Palestine or Israel...

Edited by Leen, Jan 09, 2009 - 12:58.

[Graeme]

~Lc~, on Jan 9 2009, 12:00 AM, said:

Who is We exactly Graeme? and how can we do anything? can the UN for example take a whole nation to court for not obeying international laws?

We is the international community. It's not about taking a whole nation to court. It's about punishing a nation for not obeying international laws. Simply objecting is not enough. If we let Israel get away without any sort of sanctions or anything, then other nations will see that they too can get away with anything.

The only way people are going to respect international law is if there are severe punishments if laws a broken. I believe international law should work the same way national laws do. If you break the law, you should be punished. Simple as that.

[~Lc~]

Leen, on Jan 9 2009, 02:56 PM, said:

I don't understand why there are so many non-Palestinian extremists. Don't get me wrong, I hate the war on gaza, and I hate the Israeli government and their discrimination. But that hatred doesn't blind me. Hamas is not calling for a Jihad (and we all know Jihad is not a holy war), because if it is, man they are pretty sucky muslims if you ask me. And wanting the whole of Israel as Palestine is a bit too late.

As a Palestinian who probably saw more disaster in the conflict than all of you put together, I'm kind of shocked how extreme some of you can be about this Palestine/Israel issue especially since I'm willing to guess none of you have been to either Palestine or Israel...

I'm sorry, I don't understand how your argument is relevant to anything I previously said. All you did there is call me an extremist, and perhaps implied that I'm a Hamas supporter =s it's either my Dyslexia kicking in, or you just wanting to argue with me for no good reason apparently =s

I'm reflecting simply what the news says and what Hamas have been saying in the news! so don't go around accusing me of things. It seems to me all you're trying to do is argue here balah 6a3meh (translation: without taste)

I don't know where you got the idea that I'm a non-Palestinian extremist =s, or the idea that I aid Hamas in their statements (because all I did was post what they claim they're fighting for, and you assumed it was my beliefs!) =S my suggestion to you is to look up some articles in jazeera archives and get yourself a bit more informed about what's going around in the media.

seriously some people just want to argue  

Graeme, on Jan 9 2009, 03:55 PM, said:

We is the international community. It's not about taking a whole nation to court. It's about punishing a nation for not obeying international laws. Simply objecting is not enough. If we let Israel get away without any sort of sanctions or anything, then other nations will see that they too can get away with anything.

The only way people are going to respect international law is if there are severe punishments if laws a broken. I believe international law should work the same way national laws do. If you break the law, you should be punished. Simple as that.

I agree now let's start a new United nations, with better law and better ways of implementing them!

[Leen]

~Lc~, on Jan 9 2009, 05:36 PM, said:

I'm sorry, I don't understand how your argument is relevant to anything I previously said. All you did there is call me an extremist, and perhaps implied that I'm a Hamas supporter =s it's either my Dyslexia kicking in, or you just wanting to argue with me for no good reason apparently =s

I'm reflecting simply what the news says and what Hamas have been saying in the news! so don't go around accusing me of things. It seems to me all you're trying to do is argue here balah 6a3meh (translation: without taste)

I don't know where you got the idea that I'm a non-Palestinian extremist =s, or the idea that I aid Hamas in their statements (because all I did was post what they claim they're fighting for, and you assumed it was my beliefs!) =S my suggestion to you is to look up some articles in jazeera archives and get yourself a bit more informed about what's going around in the media.

seriously some people just want to argue  

You were talking about Zionism, Jihad, and whatever. If you reflect on what the news has been saying, do it a bit clearer, don't just say. Hamas is waging a Jihad war, etc etc, because then it does pass off as your opinion. Because Hamas is "saying" its waging a Jihad... get the difference?
As for the whole read some articles, hun, Aljazeera is on 24/7 in my house on all 3 TVs, so I am quite aware of what's going on, as weird as that might sound to you.

And I wasn't specifically aiming it at you, but I have been aiming it in general..
And I didn't call you an extremist, I specifically said extreme about the issue. Doesn't mean I'm putting you in the same category as the Hamas people.

Edited by Leen, Jan 09, 2009 - 17:48.

[Mahuta ♥]

*sigh...venting*
So yeah, the UN decide, by voting, that israel should cease fire immediatly, however,
The US used the 'vito' right, and decided that the decision is to be cancelled, despite it being the only one against it.
Also, I srael stated that the UN decision doesnt mean a thing to it, and its just going to continue with its plans.
Now, what do the people that were against me have to say???
Israel is now shooting journalists as well as civilians. It's targetting some international organizations that are a part of the UN. What kind of excuse do they have now?

About the three 'no-fire' hours, they cancelled that, by bombing very abusivly a neighborhood during the three hours.

UNICEF, has got to do something as-well, the international organization(the one that is incharge of rescueing people), found 4 kids clinging on to 2 mothers that have been dead for 4 days, they found them shivering, starving on the verge of death, unable to move or get up. Where's the UNICEF? Is this how children are meant to live? 4 days clinging on to their dead mothers, these kdis are all younger than 8. More than 250 children died in 2 weeks, that is about 125 kids a week, this is about 18 children are killed everyday, where's the UNICEF? What does Israel think its doing by killing 18 innocent kids everyday?

Nothing broke my heart more than the kids, seeing them in the 'chifa' hospital  crying for their moms, well the dead moms. *sigh*
I know you guys heard all this, but I'm just venting, sorry. It really gets me, and yes, im repeating this, but it really does. The pictures and videos of those babies crying, just keeps replaying. What does Israel think its doing? Where in the world would you find 250 kids anywhere in the so called 'suspected hamas regions'?

No offence again, but maybe they should go back and see what they're doing.

How come after 9/11, Bush started war on afghanistan and Iraq to 'fight terrorism' and keep americans safe? Aren't palestinians in ghaza humans as-well? Why are they being killed like animals, and no one cares? Why are they being forbidden international support when the US got FULL support after 9/11?

These questions...I just cant find the answer to.

[Mahuta ♥]

Graeme, on Jan 9 2009, 05:55 PM, said:

We is the international community. It's not about taking a whole nation to court. It's about punishing a nation for not obeying international laws. Simply objecting is not enough. If we let Israel get away without any sort of sanctions or anything, then other nations will see that they too can get away with anything.

The only way people are going to respect international law is if there are severe punishments if laws a broken. I believe international law should work the same way national laws do. If you break the law, you should be punished. Simple as that.

I wish you're listened to. I agree, why can't there be punishements for broken laws? Israel broke every  single warfare law available. Going from using forbidden weapons, to targetting journalists and cameramen, yet, they get no punishement whatsoever, just because it has the US behind it.
ABout the objecting, yup exactly, thats what everyone one is doing, jsut objecting. Venzuella is almost the only country that took a serious action by kicking out the israeli ambassador.

[Mr. Shiver]

The US didn't veto...? I just googled "us veto" and there are some blogs saying the US abstained, allowing the resolution to pass.

[Mahuta ♥]

Leen, on Jan 9 2009, 04:56 PM, said:

Hamas is not calling for a Jihad (and we all know Jihad is not a holy war), because if it is, man they are pretty sucky muslims if you ask me. And wanting the whole of Israel as Palestine is a bit too late.

Leen, I seriously don't see your POV nor the way you think. Dont you know what will happen to them if they called for jihad? Besides, by saying 'wanting the whole of israel as palestine is a bit too late', you sound like a total non-palestinian as well as an anti-palestinian. You're talking as if its originally israel, and palestine is trying to get some of it. Also, you keep saying you studies islam for 10 years, then how can you say 'too late' when there's a promise from god that palestine is going to be ours again?

Honestly, would you think this way if you were in ghaza?

Quote

As a Palestinian who probably saw more disaster in the conflict than all of you put together, I'm kind of shocked how extreme some of you can be about this Palestine/Israel issue especially since I'm willing to guess none of you have been to either Palestine or Israel...

It has got nothing to do with that, you can be feeling for these people more than another palestinian could be. I do believe you, but you're given a very naive perspective, you seem to be knowing nothing from whats going on, although you said you dom and i believe you.  I'm not being extreme, I'm just feeling for them fully, and as I said, it doesnt matter if we've been to palestine or israel before, its all about your ethics and emotions towards them.

[Vvi]

Once again, stop blaming the UN for not saving all the people from the humanitarian crisis. They did as much as they could before the security situation in Gaza was classified as level 5.

Here's how the UN works here: there are different security stages designed specifically for the Israel/Palestine area. Level 1= low level alert. This is where Jerusalem is currently. Level 3 is where the families of UN personnel get evacuated, but the workers stay on, continuing with aid. That's the West Bank. No UN families live there.  Level 5 is the point at which the UN evacuates its workers from the area because of conditions that are too dangerous to allow them to continue their aid work anymore. Gaza was classified as level 4 even after the bombings started.

After an aid convoy was hit by a shell, killing a UN worker, the security alert was raised to level 5 and UN workers have stopped distributing food because of fear for their employees lives. Realistically: if your aid organization has someone die whilst working, you're not going to ignore it and keep going, are you?

The Red Cross is still working with food distribution centres, as well as other smaller NGO's. And the UN is about to recommence its work in the Gaza strip, which I think (even if no one else does) is very generous of them, seeing as they are putting their local and international workers in danger. See how many of you raise you hands to work in a place where your building gets bombed while you work.

"UN officials said Friday they will resume their suspended humanitarian aid operations in Gaza as soon as possible, based on assurances from the Defense Ministry that aid workers be better protected. ...Holmes stressed that not all UN operations in Gaza were suspended - only those involving the movement of vehicles, which restricted aid deliveries. " http://haaretz.com/h...es/1054231.html

So the UN is doing its utmost. Go try do something yourself if it's not enough. Try help 750,000 people dependent on your for food aid simultaneously and see how that works out. They try. They do the work that other people don't want to risk their lives to do. They sit in the middle of a war and give out food for free because they want to help, despite the risks. They take action and don't just sit at home, wishing for something to happen.

There is a separate UNDP agency just for Palestine. It's called the UNDP/PAPP (Program of Assistance to the Palestinian People). I worked there. I sat in the office, watching while the UN workers drew up contracts to build thousands of new houses for Palestinians in the West Bank. I read the contracts for the 20 or so schools built with UN money. And the water pipelines and numerous other things that no one hears about. There is also another agency, the UNRWA (United Nations Relief and Works Agency) which works with Palestinian refugees. Though you may think the UN does nothing here, they just don't advertise their achievements.

And Hamas also broke the 3-hour truce, not just Israel. 25 rockets were fired by Hamas during the "lull". Both sides can't keep a ceasefire at present.

[~Lc~]

Leen, on Jan 9 2009, 08:46 PM, said:

You were talking about Zionism, Jihad, and whatever. If you reflect on what the news has been saying, do it a bit clearer, don't just say. Hamas is waging a Jihad war, etc etc, because then it does pass off as your opinion. Because Hamas is "saying" its waging a Jihad... get the difference?
As for the whole read some articles, hun, Aljazeera is on 24/7 in my house on all 3 TVs, so I am quite aware of what's going on, as weird as that might sound to you.

And I wasn't specifically aiming it at you, but I have been aiming it in general..
And I didn't call you an extremist, I specifically said extreme about the issue. Doesn't mean I'm putting you in the same category as the Hamas people.

you seem simple minded enough not to be able to make deductions yourself so here I'll make them for you:

Quote

The quote from Hamas in the BBC said that they did it because they had nothing to lose and they wanted freedom for their people.

I think mentioning that they said that in the BBC is clear enough that what I'm saying is reflecting what is reported in the media. The other posts were trying to explain this one, as you misunderstood it to something you thought was my opinion.

[Leen]

mahuta, on Jan 10 2009, 01:32 AM, said:

Leen, I seriously don't see your POV nor the way you think. Dont you know what will happen to them if they called for jihad? Besides, by saying 'wanting the whole of israel as palestine is a bit too late', you sound like a total non-palestinian as well as an anti-palestinian. You're talking as if its originally israel, and palestine is trying to get some of it. Also, you keep saying you studies islam for 10 years, then how can you say 'too late' when there's a promise from god that palestine is going to be ours again?

Man, we all know Jihad doesn't mean holy war but it means sturggle between Good and Evil, so I don't see how that relates to Hamas. First of all, I'd like to point out that the Hamas leaders have all gone into hiding, leaving the Gazan population vulnerable against Israeli attacks, second of all, Hamas have not been too nice to their muslim population, either, because they banned the Muslims from going to the Hajj this year because they were bitter that Fatah had more quota.
As for wanting the whole of Israel as Palestine is a bit too late. If you aren't aware of this, the Israeli population composes of 6 million people, just like the Palestinian composes of 4 millions. You CAN'T ask one side to just "simply" disappear. You can't ask the Israelis to piss off, just like you can't ask the Palestinians to just "go to Jordan". I was OBVIOUSLY not hinting at the land being Israel before hand, because it wasn't. Herzl, the father of zionism himself, called it Palestine. But what I want to see the 67 borders back to the Palestinians WITHOUT any jewish settlements, and being treated as PNA, without stupid Hamas and Fatah bickering over childish things that result in worse conditions for the Palestinians themselves.

As for Islam, I studied Islam for 10 years, but I've also mentioned I don't consider myself a Muslim because I disagree with Islam on some points and on some other points I just don't believe in...

Quote

Honestly, would you think this way if you were in ghaza?

Yes, because I think that 67 borders without any settlements is a fair deal for everyone with a united government, and no blockades and whatnot as well.

Quote

It has got nothing to do with that, you can be feeling for these people more than another palestinian could be. I do believe you, but you're given a very naive perspective, you seem to be knowing nothing from whats going on, although you said you dom and i believe you.  I'm not being extreme, I'm just feeling for them fully, and as I said, it doesnt matter if we've been to palestine or israel before, its all about your ethics and emotions towards them.

You just keep misinterpertating my posts and keep passing me off as anti-Palestinian. Next time, ask what the hell am I going on about, instead of passing off judgements. And yes it matters whether you've been to Palestine or Israel, because once you experience these events yourselves for most of your life, you feel differently than an observer from out of the country. Do I like what's going on in Gaza? No, it saddens and pains me every day. But do I like knowing there's a good chance I might be blown up by my people when I go to school because where my school is, it's a popular place to bomb? No, I don't either.

[Vvi]

Leen is making more sense than all the extremists out there, and people condemn her for her "anti-Palestinian" solution? What is wrong with a two state solution? 1967 borders are what Hamas is striving to achieve. They have been offering a 10 year truce since April.

"The leader of Hamas said Monday that his Palestinian militant group would offer Israel a 10-year "hudna," or truce, as implicit proof of recognition of Israel if it withdrew from all lands it seized in the 1967 Middle East War.

Khaled Mashaal told The Associated Press that he made the offer to former U.S. President Jimmy Carter in talks on Saturday. "We have offered a truce if Israel withdraws to the 1967 borders, a truce of 10 years as a proof of recognition," Mashaal said.

In his comments Monday, Mashaal used the Arabic word "hudna," meaning truce, which is more concrete than "tahdiya" — a period of calm — which Hamas often uses to describe a simple cease-fire."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24235665/

Hamas wants a two-state solution. Fatah wants a two-state solution. The Palestinian people want a two-state solution.
Maybe the rest of the Arab states don't want a two state solution, but it's not up to them to decide is it? If the Palestinian people and the Palestinian leaders want a two-state solution, then it's not "anti-Palestinian". They decide what they want. They're not going to listen to what the rest of the world wants. If the rest of the world wants to wage Jihad on Israel, fine. Just don't say that the Palestinians do, because what they want is peace.

Do you really think that the Palestinians want to fight a never-ending war to get back all of historic Palestine? Like Leen said, there's no way you can throw all the Israelis out. They are there to stay, just like the Palestinians are. If Israel wanted to throw all the Palestinians out, they would have done so after 1948 and deported them all to Jordan or Syria or Lebanon. They didn't, which means they have no objections to them staying. The Palestinians don't want the Israelis out of the region completely either. The want the settlement land in the West Bank to be given back to them, and to have land that they legally own in Israel back. That does not mean that they want the entire state of Israel to be theirs.

People that are unwilling to accept Israel as a legal state or Palestine as a legal state need to get some serious perspective. Both of them are legal countries, both of them have a right to exist. Maybe your country doesn't recognize one of them, but the most of the world does and you need to get over yourselves and recognize both. Jordan and Egypt recognize Israel. Israel recognizes Palestine as a state. If the rest of the world would pull their heads out of their backsides and see that recognition would mean that more countries are saying no to hating the people of one country by not recognizing them, we would get somewhere. All people in the world have a right to exist.

Everyone thinks they know what's best for Israel and Palestine. All the Americans, all the other neutral countries, all the other Arab states and all the other random people out there think that what they want is what is best.

Well you know what? They don't. So leave the Palestinians to determine what they want, and the Israelis to determine what they want. Other countries try to pressure them by saying "You should never accept anything less than every single piece of land back. If you do you are not really a Palestinian" or "The West Bank and Gaza should be part of Israel too. If you don't want that, then you're not Israeli". They should shut up and stop meddling. They are all just as bad as some people say the Americans are. All of you that oppose American interference in Iraq and Afghanistan, tell me: how is meddling in Israeli/Palestinian issues any different? What gives you the right to dictate peace talks? What gives you the right to say that Palestine and Israel should do what you say?

Nothing does.

Edited by Vvi, Jan 10, 2009 - 12:37.

[Leen]

Vvi, on Jan 10 2009, 03:33 PM, said:

Leen is making more sense than all the extremists out there, and people condemn her for her "anti-Palestinian" solution? What is wrong with a two state solution? 1967 borders are what Hamas is striving to achieve. They have been offering a 10 year truce since April.

"The leader of Hamas said Monday that his Palestinian militant group would offer Israel a 10-year "hudna," or truce, as implicit proof of recognition of Israel if it withdrew from all lands it seized in the 1967 Middle East War.

Khaled Mashaal told The Associated Press that he made the offer to former U.S. President Jimmy Carter in talks on Saturday. "We have offered a truce if Israel withdraws to the 1967 borders, a truce of 10 years as a proof of recognition," Mashaal said.

In his comments Monday, Mashaal used the Arabic word "hudna," meaning truce, which is more concrete than "tahdiya" — a period of calm — which Hamas often uses to describe a simple cease-fire."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24235665/

Hamas wants a two-state solution. Fatah wants a two-state solution. The Palestinian people want a two-state solution.
Maybe the rest of the Arab states don't want a two state solution, but it's not up to them to decide is it? If the Palestinian people and the Palestinian leaders want a two-state solution, then it's not "anti-Palestinian". They decide what they want. They're not going to listen to what the rest of the world wants. If the rest of the world wants to wage Jihad on Israel, fine. Just don't say that the Palestinians do, because what they want is peace.

Do you really think that the Palestinians want to fight a never-ending war to get back all of historic Palestine? Like Leen said, there's no way you can throw all the Israelis out. They are there to stay, just like the Palestinians are. If Israel wanted to throw all the Palestinians out, they would have done so after 1948 and deported them all to Jordan or Syria or Lebanon. They didn't, which means they have no objections to them staying. The Palestinians don't want the Israelis out of the region completely either. The want the settlement land in the West Bank to be given back to them, and to have land that they legally own in Israel back. That does not mean that they want the entire state of Israel to be theirs.

People that are unwilling to accept Israel as a legal state or Palestine as a legal state need to get some serious perspective. Both of them are legal countries, both of them have a right to exist. Maybe your country doesn't recognize one of them, but the most of the world does and you need to get over yourselves and recognize both. Jordan and Egypt recognize Israel. Israel recognizes Palestine as a state. If the rest of the world would pull their heads out of their backsides and see that recognition would mean that more countries are saying no to hating the people of one country by not recognizing them, we would get somewhere. All people in the world have a right to exist.

Everyone thinks they know what's best for Israel and Palestine. All the Americans, all the other neutral countries, all the other Arab states and all the other random people out there think that what they want is what is best.

Well you know what? They don't. So leave the Palestinians to determine what they want, and the Israelis to determine what they want. Other countries try to pressure them by saying "You should never accept anything less than every single piece of land back. If you do you are not really a Palestinian" or "The West Bank and Gaza should be part of Israel too. If you don't want that, then you're not Israeli". They should shut up and stop meddling. They are all just as bad as some people say the Americans are. All of you that oppose American interference in Iraq and Afghanistan, tell me: how is meddling in Israeli/Palestinian issues any different? What gives you the right to dictate peace talks? What gives you the right to say that Palestine and Israel should do what you say?

Nothing does.

Well said Viivi, Hamas even mentioned that they won't recognize Israel until Israel recognizes Palestine. It's not like they are totally against the idea of a two-state solution or the recognition of Israel.

[hanatarash]

Vvi, on Jan 10 2009, 12:33 PM, said:

Leen is making more sense than all the extremists out there, and people condemn her for her "anti-Palestinian" solution? What is wrong with a two state solution? 1967 borders are what Hamas is striving to achieve. They have been offering a 10 year truce since April.

"The leader of Hamas said Monday that his Palestinian militant group would offer Israel a 10-year "hudna," or truce, as implicit proof of recognition of Israel if it withdrew from all lands it seized in the 1967 Middle East War.

Khaled Mashaal told The Associated Press that he made the offer to former U.S. President Jimmy Carter in talks on Saturday. "We have offered a truce if Israel withdraws to the 1967 borders, a truce of 10 years as a proof of recognition," Mashaal said.

In his comments Monday, Mashaal used the Arabic word "hudna," meaning truce, which is more concrete than "tahdiya" — a period of calm — which Hamas often uses to describe a simple cease-fire."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24235665/

Hamas wants a two-state solution. Fatah wants a two-state solution. The Palestinian people want a two-state solution.
Maybe the rest of the Arab states don't want a two state solution, but it's not up to them to decide is it? If the Palestinian people and the Palestinian leaders want a two-state solution, then it's not "anti-Palestinian". They decide what they want. They're not going to listen to what the rest of the world wants. If the rest of the world wants to wage Jihad on Israel, fine. Just don't say that the Palestinians do, because what they want is peace.

Do you really think that the Palestinians want to fight a never-ending war to get back all of historic Palestine? Like Leen said, there's no way you can throw all the Israelis out. They are there to stay, just like the Palestinians are. If Israel wanted to throw all the Palestinians out, they would have done so after 1948 and deported them all to Jordan or Syria or Lebanon. They didn't, which means they have no objections to them staying. The Palestinians don't want the Israelis out of the region completely either. The want the settlement land in the West Bank to be given back to them, and to have land that they legally own in Israel back. That does not mean that they want the entire state of Israel to be theirs.

People that are unwilling to accept Israel as a legal state or Palestine as a legal state need to get some serious perspective. Both of them are legal countries, both of them have a right to exist. Maybe your country doesn't recognize one of them, but the most of the world does and you need to get over yourselves and recognize both. Jordan and Egypt recognize Israel. Israel recognizes Palestine as a state. If the rest of the world would pull their heads out of their backsides and see that recognition would mean that more countries are saying no to hating the people of one country by not recognizing them, we would get somewhere. All people in the world have a right to exist.

Everyone thinks they know what's best for Israel and Palestine. All the Americans, all the other neutral countries, all the other Arab states and all the other random people out there think that what they want is what is best.

Well you know what? They don't. So leave the Palestinians to determine what they want, and the Israelis to determine what they want. Other countries try to pressure them by saying "You should never accept anything less than every single piece of land back. If you do you are not really a Palestinian" or "The West Bank and Gaza should be part of Israel too. If you don't want that, then you're not Israeli". They should shut up and stop meddling. They are all just as bad as some people say the Americans are. All of you that oppose American interference in Iraq and Afghanistan, tell me: how is meddling in Israeli/Palestinian issues any different? What gives you the right to dictate peace talks? What gives you the right to say that Palestine and Israel should do what you say?

Nothing does.

Well said, my friend.

[Mahuta ♥]

Vvi, on Jan 10 2009, 04:33 PM, said:

Leen is making more sense than all the extremists out there, and people condemn her for her "anti-Palestinian" solution?

Why am i not surprised that you're saying this?

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What is wrong with a two state solution? 1967 borders are what Hamas is striving to achieve. They have been offering a 10 year truce since April.

Do you honestly think thats going to happen? I dont think so.

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Hamas wants a two-state solution. Fatah wants a two-state solution. The Palestinian people want a two-state solution.

dont generalize, I have palestinians friends all around me, and they do not want a two state solution because Israel was never a state in the first place, until it came and took the palestinian land. These friends' fmailies are originally from places where now 'State of Israel' is.

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Maybe the rest of the Arab states don't want a two state solution, but it's not up to them to decide is it? If the Palestinian people and the Palestinian leaders want a two-state solution, then it's not "anti-Palestinian". They decide what they want.

How do you Hamas and Fatah are actually lsitenign to what their people want? I suggest you actually hear what people in ghaza are saying, the say 'they want a two-state' solution. I dont blame you at all for saying that, since afterall that's where you grew up.
Yes, its not up to them to decide, but its not up to israel to decide whether it wants to obey international laws or no. Its not up for israel to decide, that 'oh...that house looks undestroyed, Hamas extremists are there,  lets bomb it" then it turns out its full of innocent families.

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They're not going to listen to what the rest of the world wants. If the rest of the world wants to wage Jihad on Israel, fine. Just don't say that the Palestinians do, because what they want is peace.

most of them want their land back.