148 replies to this topic

[Leen]

Mr. Shiver, on Jan 1 2009, 07:15 AM, said:

It's not just the wife-beating; pressuring women not to go out unaccompanied/without being completely veiled comes from an outdated tradition.

False generalization. I've lived in Palestine all my life, everyone gets completely stared at. If you're veiled, you get comments, if you're not, you get comments. This has nothing to do with Islam.

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If I'm not much mistaken, the veil used to be a sign of being part of the upper class. But now it's just plain misogynistic because if you aren't wearing it you're treated like scum.

Actually, funny story. During the Prophet's time, the veil was imposed after women were telling the Prophet that they were getting raped. The Prophet asked why is this, and they said they "confused" them for slaves. So he imposed the women wear the veil, before that, Muhammad wasn't really with the idea and Omar used to kind of pressure him to impose the veil.

And as I said, not really. You're not treated like scum, in fact, I felt bigger pressure coming from women, yes women, to wear the veil instead of men. Funny, isn't it?

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If you're out alone and you get raped, it's your fault for being out alone. That's the perception still present.

I dunno how they do it in Islamic countries, but if you're out alone and you get raped, people will know who did it and what happened. After that, the man is screwed. Actually, never mind that, if you try to harrass a muslim woman, there's a good chance you're going to get caught and get the crap beaten out of you. Arabs are protective of their women, so they family will do anything they can to make sure the "honor" of the women is preserved.

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Plus there are all sorts of restrictions still in place against women that prevent them from being given anything close to equal opportunity in the workplace and elsewhere. For example, women in Saudi Arabia still aren't allowed to drive.

Saudi Arabia is not a representitve arab state....

which brings me to another point. Oh lord do I get annoyed when people mix up arabs & muslims between themselves. I'm a Palestinian, and I was raised up as a Muslim but I don't consider myself one (oh noes, apostasy!). Most of my culture don't have alot to do with Saudi Arabian culture, we're closer to Lebanese, Syrian and Jordan culture.

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you're generalizing.....it all depends...like for example...if this lady went to college..she's not going to take her family with her is she? and lets say she got raped...will they blame her? No, they wont blame her....because she went out for a reason....
whereas they would blame a lady if she went out....at night..alone...to an empty place...like not malls or stuff...and she was wearing something that will definatly attract guys to her...including strong...STRONG perfume...and she got raped...then yes..they would blame her
so there are two sides for this statement...

Ugh I'm sorry but that's just disgusting. There's no excuse for Rape, God gave you a BRAIN, and CONTROL. use it, even if I went out naked in an arab neighbourhood there's NO excuse for rape. I'm sorry but there's never an excuse for rape.

Mr. Shiver, on Jan 1 2009, 07:56 PM, said:

What would happen, though, if a woman went out without any hijab at all in other Arab countries? I mean, other than just maybe dirty looks.

Nothing. I've never worn the hijab in the life and have been living in an arab neighbourhood all my life. I always go out alone, less so during the night, and nothing has happened to me so far. Guys try to get your attention, but if you give them an evil stare they usually back off.

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Just to add, there are religious freaks everywhere. I dare say, that there are more freaks who care about religion in East London than the affluent areas of Karachi.

I have to say I agree. The stories I hear about muslims in England are just hilarious because Muslims here would never even dream of doing such things. The latest I've heard was that some muslims got offended because there was an advertisement for the police with a black dog... oh and Muslims getting offended over christmas school plays. Hilarious, because those people are usually the people who don't know much about Islam.

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They don't leave the house dressed too "suggestively" (although they will probably take along a change of clothes for when their neighbours can't see what they're wearing) and they try not to come back at indecent hours.

Hahahaha that sounds like me


All in all, Arab teenagers are not really that different from western teenagers. We just... do everything without others finding out about it..

[Mahuta ♥]

Leen, on Jan 2 2009, 10:19 PM, said:

Ugh I'm sorry but that's just disgusting. There's no excuse for Rape, God gave you a BRAIN, and CONTROL. use it, even if I went out naked in an arab neighbourhood there's NO excuse for rape. I'm sorry but there's never an excuse for rape.

Leen...im just stating what islam says....i do understand that..but there's a reason why women arent advised to go out alone...without a mahram that is....

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All in all, Arab teenagers are not really that different from western teenagers. We just... do everything without others finding out about it..

see..you're generalizing....im a teenager...im living freely...yes..but i dont really do "things" with out others finding out...and by that..im assuming these things are known to be unaccepted in an islamic community right? well thats not the case with ALL arab teenagers...
oh..and im not khaleeji (People from the gulf)...so dont mistake me for saying thing because im khaleeji...
im tunisian..and tunisians are sometime said to be the furthest arabs from islam..yet..i dont do these things,...
so you cant really say that...just say some:S....
and arab teenagers...are a lot different from western teenagers...and this is said by western high school teachers that taught in both western and arab community(in sultan's school)...
if i can..i would start a whole thread about that....because i do see some people mistaking us for being either like western teenagers...or absolutly close-minded arab teenagers...

if you're giving the impression on your self for not being a conservative muslim..then don't generalize:S...although i do think...just by knowing the story by which hijab (scarf) was said to be a must...you do sound like a conservative one mashallah...so why are you giving the "not really a muslim" impression on yourself???

Edited by mahuta, Jan 07, 2009 - 19:45.

[Leen]

mahuta, on Jan 2 2009, 08:54 PM, said:

Leen...im just stating what islam says....i do understand that..but there's a reason why women arent advised to go out alone...without a mahram that is....

Where in the Quran, pray tell, does Islam say you have an excuse to rape women? Yes I've heard of the hadith that women wearing perfume are one step away from pre-martial sex but honestly....

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see..you're generalizing....im a teenager...im living freely...yes..but i dont really do "things" with out others finding out...and by that..im assuming these things are known to be unaccepted in an islamic community right? well thats not the case with ALL arab teenagers...
oh..and im not khaleeji...so dont mistake me for saying thing because im khaleeji...
im tunisian..and tunisians are sometime said to be the furthest arabs from islam..yet..i dont do these things,...
so you cant really say that...just say some:S....
and arab teenagers...are a lot different from western teenagers...and this is said by western high school teachers that taught in both western and arab community(in sultan's school)...
if i can..i would start a whole thread about that....because i do see some people mistaking us for being either like western teenagers...or absolutly close-minded arab teenagers...

I'm just saying from experience. I'm from a muslim family and live in an arab community, so I do see and hear a lot of stories from arab teenagers. This is what globalization does.

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if you're giving the impression on your self for not being a conservative muslim..then don't generalize:S...although i do think...just by knowing the story by which hijab was said to be a must...you do sound like a conservative one mashallah...so why are you giving the "not really a muslim" impression on yourself???

Because I love to read about Islam, Muhammad and the Quran. I don't consider myself a muslim, as I said, because there are a lot of things I disagree with Islam and there's tons of things I do against Islam, but I do read about it, especially the Quran, because I'm not going to take someone else's word for it until I see substantial proof.

It's better to have knowledge and know where you stand, than not to have any knowledge and be so radically opinionated. Knowledge is my weapon against zealots, ignorance and retardation of religions.

Edited by Leen, Jan 02, 2009 - 20:23.

[Mahuta ♥]

Leen, on Jan 3 2009, 12:20 AM, said:

Where in the Quran, pray tell, does Islam say you have an excuse to rape women? Yes I've heard of the hadith that women wearing perfume are one step away from pre-martial sex but honestly....

leen..i never said there's an excuse..lol..rape is a crime....in every religion and culture...i dont see why you think im saying there is,,,,

[Mr. Shiver]

Leen, on Jan 2 2009, 01:19 PM, said:

False generalization.

I'm not sure what generalization you're referring to. I don't see any.

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I've lived in Palestine all my life, everyone gets completely stared at. If you're veiled, you get comments, if you're not, you get comments.

Interesting. Is this a frequent occurrence?

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This has nothing to do with Islam.

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Oh lord do I get annoyed when people mix up arabs & muslims between themselves.

I hope you realize I've been trying to be as secular about this as possible.

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Actually, funny story. During the Prophet's time, the veil was imposed after women were telling the Prophet that they were getting raped. The Prophet asked why is this, and they said they "confused" them for slaves. So he imposed the women wear the veil, before that, Muhammad wasn't really with the idea and Omar used to kind of pressure him to impose the veil.

That's also interesting. Where'd you hear that from, a hadith? What I've read on the matter is that during the 7th century, since the veil was impractical attire for working women, a veiled woman was a sign that she belonged to the upper class and that her husband was rich enough to keep her idle. Sharia law was developed in the 8th and 9th centuries, which is when hijab laws were, I think, first codified--not sure about when and how it became a societal norm for women of all classes.

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And as I said, not really. You're not treated like scum, in fact, I felt bigger pressure coming from women, yes women, to wear the veil instead of men. Funny, isn't it?

That doesn't surprise me much.

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I dunno how they do it in Islamic countries, but if you're out alone and you get raped, people will know who did it and what happened. After that, the man is screwed. Actually, never mind that, if you try to harrass a muslim woman, there's a good chance you're going to get caught and get the crap beaten out of you.

In Palestine, you mean? Well, that's good to hear. As I've already conceded, my remarks should really have implicated only the KSA.

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Arabs are protective of their women, so they family will do anything they can to make sure the "honor" of the women is preserved.

I'm curious to know what constitutes "honor" in this context.

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Saudi Arabia is not a representitve arab state....

Clearly not. This thread is quite enlightening.

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I was raised up as a Muslim but I don't consider myself one (oh noes, apostasy!)

You and me both, sista.

[Leen]

Mr. Shiver, on Jan 3 2009, 05:23 AM, said:

I'm not sure what generalization you're referring to. I don't see any.

The whole pressure to wear hijab. If you hang out with like-minded people, you won't get any pressure. I hang out with muslims & arabs who think alike, and don't wear the hijab either so they obviously won't pressure me. If you start discussing religion with very religious muslims, then the hijab topic would probably rise.

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Interesting. Is this a frequent occurrence?

Again depends where you go, for me it doesn't happen so much. I usually give evil stares so they don't dare.

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I hope you realize I've been trying to be as secular about this as possible.

I do know but sometimes people overlook the fact that a lot of those so called Islamic traditions are not actually in the Quran. It happens alot between muslims too, I've had too many muslims tell me this and that, and then find out it's not even in the quran.

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That's also interesting. Where'd you hear that from, a hadith? What I've read on the matter is that during the 7th century, since the veil was impractical attire for working women, a veiled woman was a sign that she belonged to the upper class and that her husband was rich enough to keep her idle. Sharia law was developed in the 8th and 9th centuries, which is when hijab laws were, I think, first codified--not sure about when and how it became a societal norm for women of all classes.

I've first read it in "The Veil and the Male Elite" by Fatima Menrissi, but then I've expanded on it. There are several hadiths concerning the veil, and yeah there is also the whole thing where women didn't really wear the veil either, only the upper class ones. And it's true the Shariah Law wasn't developped during Muhammad's time, so it's hard to trust it, in a way, as a representation of Islam.

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In Palestine, you mean? Well, that's good to hear. As I've already conceded, my remarks should really have implicated only the KSA.

Yeah, in Palestine. Yeah I understand

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I'm curious to know what constitutes "honor" in this context.

Virginity, and how should say this? Harm to one's sexual self.

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You and me both, sista.

[Mahuta ♥]

Leen, on Jan 3 2009, 03:45 PM, said:

I do know but sometimes people overlook the fact that a lot of those so called Islamic traditions are not actually in the Quran. It happens alot between muslims too, I've had too many muslims tell me this and that, and then find out it's not even in the quran.

Leen, there are things that are mentioned generally in the quran, and is explained further in the hadiths. If you were told something about islam and you want to check it's right, you should refer to the hadith (what is said by the prophet, either explaining what's in the quran in further details or things that the quran hasnt talked about clearly) as-well as the quran. There are tons of things that haven't been explained in details in the quran yet in sunnah and hadith (sunnah is what was done by the prophet, the hadeeth is the part said), the almost full description is found.
Oh, and i'm having this impression that you look at islam very vaguely, no offence.
I mean, it's known that the sources of sharia'a (Set od Islamic laws) are 4: Quran, Sunnah/Hadith, Measuring upon something and Ijma'a(where all the muslims religious men -only the main reliable ones- agree on a certain thing to suit the time we're living in, only for the things that werent stated clearly in the quran).
If you had muslims that call something islamic tradition and its not found in the quran, then don't you think that probaby it is the prophet's (PBUH) sunnah?
Like for example, where in the quran does it say that reading the "al kahf" surat (A chapter of the quran) will remove all your sins for the past and the following week? It doesn't, but we all know that true. If it's mentioned in quran, does that mean that its NOT true? Ofcourse it is, because the prophet said it.
I think personally that you should consider the fact that the sunnah and hadith are the second most accurate source after the quran.

Edited by mahuta, Jan 07, 2009 - 19:49.

[Leen]

mahuta, on Jan 3 2009, 05:05 PM, said:

Leen, there are things that are mentioned generally in the quran, and is explained further in the hadiths. If you were told something about islam and you want to check it's right, you should refer to the hadith as-well as the quran. There are tons of things that haven't been explained in details in the quran yet in sunnah and hadith, the almost full description is found.
Oh, and i'm having this impression that you look at islam very vaguely, no offence.

Actually, you're wrong. I've studied Islam for 10 years, subjectively, and I've had Islamic history as long with it. I've also done my own studying and read the Quran.
Now about the Hadith....
It's true, that you can usually find the explanation in the Hadith, however there are always problems with the Hadith. A lot of people recount Hadith that have never been mentioned before. A man once recounted that Muhammad said that "Women cannot lead" (That's not the full one obviously but I'm just recounting what I remember from some of the things I read), in the midst of the Battle of Camels when Aisha and Ali bin Abi Talib were having a rift, Aisha was obviously leading on the other end. However this hadith has never been uttered before, yet till now people take it as a hadith, why? Because it enforces the idea of sexism! The event happened 50 years after Muhammad's death so what gives?
Then there's the whole idea that most of the Hadith were passed down orally, and we know how reliable is oral history. Now when did the Ahadith been written down, I dunno, but you have to admit they can't be that relibale if they've been written down 100 years after Muhammad's death...
And another thing, a lot of the Sahabi were sexist, and some even recounted Hadiths that were slightly changed to suit their sexism. Abu Hurayra is an example. He was a very sexist man and always fought with Aisha. He once said that Muhammad said that when a dog, a donkey and a woman cross your pass, you lose your "woodoo'" (again I'm recounting, if you're really THAT curious, I'll look up the word for word), however Aisha said that Abu Hurayra came in the middle of of Muhammad's sentence and he was shunning the superstition that the Arab Pagans held towards women.
And one last thing, yes the Hadith shouldn't be poorly treated, however it doesn't have the status as high as the Quran. That's when the whole "Fard" and "Sunnah" come in.

In a nutshell, the reason why I don't refer to the Hadith as much is because it's unreliable, especially when some things are said that go against the Quran and Muhammad's general life.

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I mean, it's known that the sources of sharia'a are 4: Quran, Sunnah/Hadith, Measuring upon something and Ijma'a

The Sharia differs from country to country if you noticed, that's why it's unreliable, once more.

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If you had muslims that call something islamic tradition and its not found in the quran, then don't you think that probaby it is the prophet's (PBUH) sunnah?
Like for example, where in the quran does it say that reading the "al kahf" surat will remove all your sins for the past and the following week? It doesn't, but we all know that true. If it's mentioned in quran, does that mean that its NOT true? Ofcourse it is, because the prophet said it.

See, I don't understand this mentality of doing things because you get something out of it. If I want to read al Kahf, I want to read it because I want to know what's written in there, not because I want to be forgiven, or whatever. I know that Muhammad is trying to make life easier for the muslims and all, but I still don't understand that mentality. And go ahead, read Al-Kahf and expect your sins to be forgiven, I'm going to read it because I want to be enlightened about the Quran, I don't mind if my sins get forgiven or not.
And you have to realize Sunnah is not as important as Fard.

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I think personally that you should consider the fact that the sunnah and hadith are the second most accurate source after the quran.

In theory, yes, in practice they aren't, because people abuse it and the Sahabi always had some little bias when it comes to the Ahadeeth.

[Mahuta ♥]

Leen, on Jan 3 2009, 08:08 PM, said:

Actually, you're wrong. I've studied Islam for 10 years, subjectively, and I've had Islamic history as long with it. I've also done my own studying and read the Quran.
Now about the Hadith....
It's true, that you can usually find the explanation in the Hadith, however there are always problems with the Hadith. A lot of people recount Hadith that have never been mentioned before. A man once recounted that Muhammad said that "Women cannot lead" (That's not the full one obviously but I'm just recounting what I remember from some of the things I read), in the midst of the Battle of Camels when Aisha and Ali bin Abi Talib were having a rift, Aisha was obviously leading on the other end. However this hadith has never been uttered before, yet till now people take it as a hadith, why? Because it enforces the idea of sexism! The event happened 50 years after Muhammad's death so what gives?
Then there's the whole idea that most of the Hadith were passed down orally, and we know how reliable is oral history. Now when did the Ahadith been written down, I dunno, but you have to admit they can't be that relibale if they've been written down 100 years after Muhammad's death...
And another thing, a lot of the Sahabi were sexist, and some even recounted Hadiths that were slightly changed to suit their sexism. Abu Hurayra is an example. He was a very sexist man and always fought with Aisha. He once said that Muhammad said that when a dog, a donkey and a woman cross your pass, you lose your "woodoo'" (again I'm recounting, if you're really THAT curious, I'll look up the word for word), however Aisha said that Abu Hurayra came in the middle of of Muhammad's sentence and he was shunning the superstition that the Arab Pagans held towards women.
And one last thing, yes the Hadith shouldn't be poorly treated, however it doesn't have the status as high as the Quran. That's when the whole "Fard" and "Sunnah" come in.

In a nutshell, the reason why I don't refer to the Hadith as much is because it's unreliable, especially when some things are said that go against the Quran and Muhammad's general life.


The Sharia differs from country to country if you noticed, that's why it's unreliable, once more.


See, I don't understand this mentality of doing things because you get something out of it. If I want to read al Kahf, I want to read it because I want to know what's written in there, not because I want to be forgiven, or whatever. I know that Muhammad is trying to make life easier for the muslims and all, but I still don't understand that mentality. And go ahead, read Al-Kahf and expect your sins to be forgiven, I'm going to read it because I want to be enlightened about the Quran, I don't mind if my sins get forgiven or not.
And you have to realize Sunnah is not as important as Fard.


In theory, yes, in practice they aren't, because people abuse it and the Sahabi always had some little bias when it comes to the Ahadeeth.

Ok, I respect what you're saying, but didnt you realize that you just went over the limit? I'm sorry, but knowing that you studied the Islam well, I'm sure you know "7km el2iftira2 3la asa7aba" (Saying things on the prophet's compagnons that arent true or that would touch the position god has given them). I'm not going to go into that, because I personally believe that it's not for us to say anything about them. Besides, they're in heaven, which says a lot about the reliability of the hadith you mentioned about Abu Hurayra (one of his compagnons).

So you believe that things mentioned in thee hadiths, are sunnah. Did the quran tell us how many rak3a's(unities) to pray?? The hadith did, does that mean, to pray 4 rak3as for thuhr (noon prayer) is a sunnah, and i can pray 2 instead??

Leen, there are different types of hadith, that i'm certain you know.Hadith Qudusi, Hadith Sa7i7(it is one that is said to be 100% true), Hadith Hasan (one that is very likely to be true), Hadith Tha3eef(very weak and shouldnt be taked as granted for vital things) and Hadith Mawdou3 (which is the one you were saying it contridicts with the quran and what the prophet said).
For things in Hadith qudusi and hadith sa7i7, i'd take everything they say for being true.

What do you say about the hadith SA7I7: "man 5araja 3an sunnatti falaysa minni?" (who ever leaves my sunnah isn't from my ummah)

Edited by mahuta, Jan 07, 2009 - 20:12.

[Leen]

mahuta, on Jan 3 2009, 09:05 PM, said:

Ok, I respect what you're saying, but didnt you realize that you just went over the limit? I'm sorry, but knowing that you studied the Islam well, I'm sure you know "7km el2iftira2 3la asa7aba". I'm not going to go into that, because I personally believe that it's not for us to say anything about them. Besides, they're in heaven, which says a lot about the reliability of the hadith you mentioned about Abu Hurayra.

So you believe that things mentioned in thee hadiths, are sunnah. Did the quran tell us how many rak3a's to pray?? The hadith did, does that mean, to pray 4 rak3as for thuhr is a sunnah, and i can pray 2 instead??

Leen, there are different types of hadith, that i'm certain you know.Hadith Qudusi, Hadith Sa7i7, Hadith Hasan, Hadith Tha3eef and Hadith Mawdou3(which is the one you were saying it contridicts with the quran and what the prophet said).
For things in Hadith qudusi and hadith sa7i7, i'd take everything they say for being true.

What do you say about the hadith SA7I7: "man 5araja 3an sunnatti falaysa minni?"

I will openly criticize the Sahabi because we cannot progress and understand if we cannot criticize, that's one form of censorship.
And they are humans, like me and you, so why is it a surprise to see them making me mistakes and be "humans"?

I've never disregarded the Sunnah, I just think it's not as reliable as the Quran, sorry.

Yes ofcourse, but people don't tend to analyze where and what this hadith comes from, therefore we have more ignorance.

Well I already told you, I don't consider myself a muslim, so that's hard for me to believe in general.

[Anonymouser]

I hope I'm not interrupting.

Anywho...
I can see where you're coming from Leen, but the Quran did not answer every single question that might come up. I don't remember the exact ayah but I know that there is an ayah that says if there's a question to which you are unable to find an answer here, then go to the person who would have the knowledge to answer that question.

So lets say something was not answered in the Quran, we have to refer to the prophet's Sunnah and the Sa7aba. And I believe we should trust the a7adeeth w al sa7aba because God would not have let the sunnah and the a7adeeth out had they not been right. God would not let his own religion corrupt. Moreover, Bu5ari w Muslim chose the people they took the a7adeeth from VERY carefully. Also, I'm sure you know that there are many a7adeeth in common between Bu5ari wa Muslim, was that just coincidence? God would never have let the Sunnah stay there for 1500 years and the a7adeeth if they were misguiding.
PS: The a7adeeth were written only a few years after Muhammad's death, not 100 years. And as I said, two men gathered them from very reliable sources, and that's why they have a lot of a7adeeth in common, which is not a coincidence. Plus, no one ever gave the a7adeeth a status as high as the Quran. You shouldn't trust all a7adeeth, but the a7adeeth by Bu5ari wa Muslim are more than reliable.

If there was something I just mentioned that was mentioned before, just let me know please. I couldn't read the entire convo, it's way too long.

[Leen]

Anonymouser, on Jan 4 2009, 03:07 AM, said:

I hope I'm not interrupting.

Anywho...
I can see where you're coming from Leen, but the Quran did not answer every single question that might come up. I don't remember the exact ayah but I know that there is an ayah that says if there's a question to which you are unable to find an answer here, then go to the person who would have the knowledge to answer that question.

So lets say something was not answered in the Quran, we have to refer to the prophet's Sunnah and the Sa7aba. And I believe we should trust the a7adeeth w al sa7aba because God would not have let the sunnah and the a7adeeth out had they not been right. God would not let his own religion corrupt. Moreover, Bu5ari w Muslim chose the people they took the a7adeeth from VERY carefully. Also, I'm sure you know that there are many a7adeeth in common between Bu5ari wa Muslim, was that just coincidence? God would never have let the Sunnah stay there for 1500 years and the a7adeeth if they were misguiding.
PS: The a7adeeth were written only a few years after Muhammad's death, not 100 years. And as I said, two men gathered them from very reliable sources, and that's why they have a lot of a7adeeth in common, which is not a coincidence. Plus, no one ever gave the a7adeeth a status as high as the Quran. You shouldn't trust all a7adeeth, but the a7adeeth by Bu5ari wa Muslim are more than reliable.

If there was something I just mentioned that was mentioned before, just let me know please. I couldn't read the entire convo, it's way too long.

I do know that God in the Quran said that the Ahadeeth are a follow up to the Quran and explain it more thoroughly. But the things that I've mentioned before, the barriers, have left me baffled for words. I can't believe how sexist some of his Sahabi were, so my own little bias prevents me from trusting their words when it comes to Muhammad's words about women.

[cokesandcokes]

Leen, on Jan 4 2009, 02:37 AM, said:

I do know that God in the Quran said that the Ahadeeth are a follow up to the Quran and explain it more thoroughly. But the things that I've mentioned before, the barriers, have left me baffled for words. I can't believe how sexist some of his Sahabi were, so my own little bias prevents me from trusting their words when it comes to Muhammad's words about women.

Interesting. I'm just curious to read these 'sexist' ahadith so if it's in your capacity, I'd appreciate it if you refer me to them

[Mahuta ♥]

That's what I also want leen, because i don't see why the prophet would say sexist ahadeeths, unless you're saying that he himself (PBUH) is sexist, in which case you've gone too far, i guess.

[Leen]

cokesandcokes, on Jan 6 2009, 02:20 PM, said:

Interesting. I'm just curious to read these 'sexist' ahadith so if it's in your capacity, I'd appreciate it if you refer me to them

"Those who entrust their affairs to a woman will never know prosperity" (According to Menrissi, its was in the Al-'Asqalani's thirteen volume", but it was also recounted by Al-Bukhari, according to him it was supposably Abu Bakra who has heard the Prophet say it. Menrissi carried on to discuss that the hadith was recalled only a quarter of a century later after the Prophet's death).

"The Prophet said that the dog, the ass, and woman interrupt prayer if they pass in front of the believer, interposing themselves between him and the qibla" (was recounted by Abu Hurayra and collected by Al-Bukhari, but Aisha went on to correct him and said "You compare us now to asses and dogs. In the name of Go, I have seen the Prophet saying his prayers while I was there, lying on the bed between him and the qibla. And in order not to disturb him, I didn't move"... Bukhari neglects to insert the corrections made by Aisha.

There are several other sayings by the companions (especially Abu Hurayra) who said the Prophet said this and that, and Aisha or Um Salma contradicts him and said that never happened. They are not as shocking as the first two, but they are ... yeah.
If you're more interested, I suggest you read The Veil and the Male Elite by Fatima Menrissi, she does a better job at explaining it than me.

[Mahuta ♥]

For the first one, yes that's correct and it does make sense. Women are more emotional than men, in a situation as that, where you're entrusting affairs to a woman, you wouldnt garuntee that she's really going to know how to deal with them, due to her feminine personality.
We can't really deny that, because we know it, and its proven to be true. Men are somehow more reasonable than us, so hence they'll be more qualified to be entrusted affairs.
Leen, I really think we shouldnt question such things, because I do trust our prophet and things he says are there for a reason, ALWAYS, and since you trust the quran: "wa ma yante9u 3an el hawa" (and he doesnt say anything from his own" this is in the quran, saying that whatever the prophet says is true because he wouldnt say anything to the muslims unless it came from god), is just enough for us to believe and trust what he says.

Edited by mahuta, Jan 07, 2009 - 20:15.

[Leen]

mahuta, on Jan 6 2009, 05:51 PM, said:

For the first one, yes that's correct and it does make sense. Women are more emotional than men, in a situation as that, where you're entrusting affairs to a woman, you wouldnt garuntee that she's really going to know how to deal with them, due to her feminine personality.
We can't really deny that, because we know it, and its proven to be true. Men are somehow more reasonable than us, so hence they'll be more qualified to be entrusted affairs.

Did you not read my comment after that?
And please, that is sexist and you know it. I know a lot of women and they are capable of doing what is asked for them without their emotion interrupting their activities. Wouldn't the same be said for men and their testosterone?
I really think that's an extremely sexist thought. Please, tell me where has it been proven? Just in TOK, our teacher was telling us how people tend to view emotion as a "bad" thing, it's not. It doesn't even contradict reason, it's another way of knowing.

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Leen, I really think we shouldnt question such things, because I do trust our prophet and things he says are there for a reason, ALWAYS, and since you trust the quran: "wa ma yante9u 3an el hawa", is just enough for us to believe and trust what he says.

If we cannot question, then we will never progress. And as I said, that hadith shouldn't be trusted because Abu Bakra wasn't even that close to Muhammad (not Abu Bakr, we're talking about someone else) and that hadith was only mentioned a quarter of a century later after Muhammad's death. These are the facts you cannot ignore and highly, highly make the hadith trustable.

[Mahuta ♥]

Alright, i take your point. But one thing I'd say is that if the hadeeth you mentioned is hadeeth hasan or tha3eef, then ok, i might agree.
However if the hadeeth is Sa7ee7, I wouldnt even consider talking about it.
So Leen, what Im saying this, I would even dare say anything about a hadeeth being sexist if its sa7ee7.
Thats what I think.

[deissi]

Sorry guys but this is getting a bit l3kaa7zxcv8n for the general public if you know what I mean . If you would be so kind as to even put a short explanation of the content of your message to those of us who don't speak Arabic.

[cokesandcokes]

hahahahahaha

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l3kaa7zxcv8n