47 replies to this topic

[pieee]

To say that religion and intellectualism cannot coexist is DEFINITELY a claim on the extreme side.

I haven't quite figured out how multiple quoting works yet but i must agree with the first post on the second page that 'Correlation does not necessarily indicate causation.' In fact, i dont even think there is a definite correlation that can be drawn between % atheist/agnostic intellectuals and % others who are atheist/agnostic.

I do agree that while some people may begin their life religious, as they receive an education or begin to become more knowledgeable, they question the validity of certain doctrines or teachings of a religion, allowing them to eventually become atheistic or agnostic. But it should be recognized that there are other people who receive an education, question certain 'truth's, and obtain knowledge all the same while still remaining religious. Who is to say that they are not intellectual?

And also, science and religion aren't completely conflicting either (wow this is getting very TOK now). Just because science is more based in reason, experiments, and proof, it doesnt mean that scientists aren't religious. Of course, some aren't. But there are also scientists, especially those exploring a new area or branch, who are very devout. I once read an autobiography of a scientist (ernest rutherford i think...) and he said his discoveries only made him believe in G-d more because he believed his discoveries couldn't have happened without the help of a Greater power, or because nature was so marvelous that there must have been a G-d to create it (or both, really).
This actually applies to studies in most areas really. If a person really were to conduct deep, thorough analysis to a field or topic, eventually he/she will reach a dead end, or a thing that cannot be proven - some point where when asked the question 'why?' you have to say 'JUST CUZ'. And for the highly intellectual, some of them believe that a Greater power is what created this 'Just cuz'. It may not be a G-d per se. I'd say they were more... spiritual, rather than religious.

If we really were to draw a correlation between education and religion, then perhaps there is a spectrum. I would argue that perhaps majority of the uneducated (if that's what you mean by not intellectual) are religious; the majority of those who receive an education may lie on the atheist/agnostic side; while people on the er.. 'higher end' of intelligence or intellectuality may actually be more inclined to believe in a Greater power.

Edited by pieee, May 16, 2011 - 12:17.

[TurtleR]

Honestly, theres no way to really answer a question as vague as this.

What do we consider to be smart/intellectual? A person in a professional field such as medicine? A person with good grades? A person who is veery analytical?

What do we consider to be religious? For example, am I religious because I believe in God? Because God is where my faith stops. I don't believe in anything else, I simply believe that there is a God. Nor do I consider myself religious. Religion doesn't matter to me, but I'm not so apathetic that I would be agnostic.

I don't think religion and intelligence have much to do with each other. Rather, I think what matters is open-mindedness. I've noticed that people who are very closed-minded tend to be less intelligent, and this applies to both people who are religious and people who are agnostic or atheist.

So, short answer, no, intellectualism and religion are not necessarily connected.

[Trololol Marf]

Well, this is just me, but some top-of-the-line reseachers may come to conclusions, as they might think that some questions just can't be answered by science.

Now lets find some common ground.

Talking about everyday people, the impious people we find tend to be a tad more skeptical than the average joe. As some people might have said, skeptics tend to question more and their motivation is more driven by their curiosity and question for knowledge and its sources. Perhaps hearing about something that seems superstitious or superficial is ridiculous to them. But here's a fact, scientists tend to be impious more than pious. I'm not sure if it means anything, but the sciences are more reason-logic based than most of another subject one would study.

[Arrowhead]

While I do think that the more educated one becomes, the more one questions God and religion in general, I do not think that the relative secularity or religious affiliation of a school or education system is really a defining factor in whether or not someone who is educated is atheistic or agnostic. I believe the most important factor is what you're taught at home.

If your parents tend to be chilled and unconcerned about being devout church-goers, or they don't encourage you to worship a statue in the titular temple in your main hall or they don't enforce reading the Namaz as is ritualistic in a day, the child tends to be more lax about religion and is much quicker to question it.

I grew up in a home where my Mum literally follows (what I call) a cult of a Guru who is based in North India and my Dad is totally into idol worship (well, his side of the family in any case). They both made a decision that they wouldn't try to indoctrinate my sister or myself in either of their religious sects, just teach us basic religious truths of having faith, believing in God, and universality of karma. I did reach a point when I fashioned myself as atheist (this was when I was 11) and that was more to make a statement of 'ooh look at me, I'm so much cooler than all you Indians because I know God doesn't exist coz I'm like totally smart and stuff.'

Anyway, my Mum took me aside and we spent a weekend studying religion (not only Hinduism, but also Islam, and Christianity to some extent). She explained her own spiritual journey and how she found her Guru and the truths of Hindu philosophy of life and religion and God.

At the end of it, she basically said that it was hardly anything impressive to stand up and provide a million reasons why God doesn't exist and religion is merely wishful thinking. She too did that in her youth as a young academic. But she found that trying to have faith despite it all was much more challenging and fulfilling. If there is no God, no hope of anything before (because we're big on reincarnation in Hinduism) or after this life on Earth, well, why live? We have a life and if there is nobody watching us to ultimately judge us, then why try to be 'good?'

tl;dr: She told me: God exists and religion is not meaningless, it was easy to question this, but having unequivocal faith made one a true follower.

So yeah, I consider myself reasonably well educated, and on the way to becoming more educated (I don't know about intellectual though) and I believe there is a God. I'm not atheist nor agnostic, I believe, without a shadow of a doubt, there is a God watching over me. Nothing that anybody says will shake that faith in me because it was something I was raised with.

[Daedalus]

Arrowhead, on Aug 25, 2011 - 00:05, said:

So yeah, I consider myself reasonably well educated, and on the way to becoming more educated (I don't know about intellectual though) and I believe there is a God. I'm not atheist nor agnostic, I believe, without a shadow of a doubt, there is a God watching over me. Nothing that anybody says will shake that faith in me because it was something I was raised with.

Don't you see how your 'argument' could be used to justify exactly anything? If somebody told you they believed in the Purple Horned Unicorn because they were raised with it, and that nothing anybody says can shake their faith in it, wouldn't you think they were an idiot? That's basically what this sounds like.

I appreciate you trying to show us your spiritual journey, but all I can make out in this post is that at some point you substituted emotion for reason as your way of knowing, and things went downhill from there.

[d3athlig3r]

I totally disagree that the more studious you are, the less faithful you become (or the more you tend towards agnosticism/atheism).

A God is a necessary being. Otherwise nothing will make sense.

I won't deny that there are large amounts of ignorant 'believers', and that many atheists/agnostics are 'rational'. But there is a correlation? Definitely no. Will a person become less faithful as they study? not at all.

On the contrary, you'll find people strengthening their faith as they delve into the wonders of creation.

That is my point of view, and I respect all others.

Edited by d3athlig3r, Aug 25, 2011 - 01:27.

[Arrowhead]

Daedalus said:

Don't you see how your 'argument' could be used to justify exactly anything? If somebody told you they believed in the Purple Horned Unicorn because they were raised with it, and that nothing anybody says can shake their faith in it, wouldn't you think they were an idiot? That's basically what this sounds like.I appreciate you trying to show us your spiritual journey, but all I can make out in this post is that at some point you substituted emotion for reason as your way of knowing, and things went downhill from there.

The argument about being 'raised' with it was to counter the general consensus on one's school's secularity or lack of playing a huge role in determining whether they end up being atheist or agnostic.

On another note, there is a difference between a Purple Horned Unicorn and God and I'm sure you know that. What I said wasn't an argument nor a justification, either of those things needs facts and reason and logic, all I said was I have faith in God. That faith is baseless, unreasonable, and illogical and I don't disagree with that. But that doesn't mean I apportion that same kind of faith in every idea or theory that comes my way. Faith in God is the one exception.

Yeah I substituted emotion for reason when it comes to my faith, because in religion, you don't need reason nor logic, you just need emotion and love. I'm not trying to indoctrinate anyone, nor tell them that their atheism or agnosticism is terrible, I'm simply elucidating my view of what I believe on the subject and I am agreeing that what I believe is illogical.

Edited by Arrowhead, Aug 25, 2011 - 07:43.

[C.James]

d3athlig3r, on Aug 25, 2011 - 01:27, said:

I totally disagree that the more studious you are, the less faithful you become (or the more you tend towards agnosticism/atheism).

A God is a necessary being. Otherwise nothing will make sense.

I won't deny that there are large amounts of ignorant 'believers', and that many atheists/agnostics are 'rational'. But there is a correlation? Definitely no. Will a person become less faithful as they study? not at all.

On the contrary, you'll find people strengthening their faith as they delve into the wonders of creation.

That is my point of view, and I respect all others.

I'll tackle your post paragraph by paragraph:

1) Good to have a thesis, IB has taught you well.  

2) This is conjecture. It sounds like a statement made 100% from faith. Try to look at from a nonbelievers view (or at lest my version of unbelief), the universe makes sense on its own and a diety complicates things because I don't see how a diety answers questions without being eqully unexplianable: if there is acreator where did the creator come from, back to square one.  We should be careful about making vast leaps without at least explaining yourself or recognizing you are making a faith based statement.

3) Well there is a difference between "study more and intellectual. Notice how it is feilds that are most critical about reality that have the highest rates of nonbelief. The most common faculty to find the highly devout in is business, a feild that makes 0 claims about the natural world that require critical thought about one's eligon and world view, coincidence? Possibly but to outright deny a correlation is to engage in the fine art of occam's broomstick (sweeping inconvieniant facts under the rug).

4) But this isn't the statistical norm.

Quote

In 1914, James H. Leuba found that 58% of 1,000 randomly selected U.S. natural scientists expressed "disbelief or doubt in the existence of God" (defined as a personal God which interacts directly with human beings). The same study, repeated in 1996, gave a similar percentage of 60.7%. Expressions of positive disbelief rose from 52% to 72%

These people seem to be studying the unierse for its own beauty, not as an act of creation. Be careful about ignoring data, faith can make us make us do some really bad reasoning. (like ignoring facts). (on a side note I'm amazed how high that statistic ws in 1914)

5) Okay, are we obligated to respect an ill-founded opinion that ignores information? Regardless, the above is my attempt to refute your claims.