48 replies to this topic

[Vvi]

http://news.bbc.co.u...ion/8085011.stm

"Female students are ahead of men in almost every measure of UK university achievement, according to a report from higher education researchers. A Higher Education Policy Institute report shows that women are more likely to get places in the top universities and go on to get better grades. Women also outnumber men in high status subjects, such as law and medicine. Women have been entering university in greater numbers than men in recent years - with the participation rate for young women standing at 49%, compared with 38% of young men.

The study disproves the notion that men dominate in the most highly-regarded subjects and institutions. It found that women are taking more places at prestigious Russell Group universities and on the most sought-after courses.The only exception is for Oxford and Cambridge, where men and women are now level. There are also still some subject areas, such as courses related to maths, physics and technology, where men are in the majority. But the overall picture shows a consistent trend in women substantially outnumbering men. In degree grades, women are more likely to gain "good degrees" - taking first class and upper seconds together - while men are more likely to gain lower seconds and thirds.

However the report also shows that the greater success of women in education is a global pattern - suggesting it is more than the local circumstances of particular types of exam."

Thought? Personally, I'm proud that women are achieving better than ever, despite the difference in wages that still exists.

Links to similar articles:

http://news.bbc.co.u...ucation/3110594
http://news.bbc.co.u.../882926.stm.stm
http://news.bbc.co.u...ion/6314055.stm
http://news.bbc.co.u...ion/6364337.stm

Edited by Vvi, Jun 07, 2009 - 11:17.

[Bishup]

Women study, they have no life and no rights they belong in the house or in the kitchen. Only kidding. I've always known that women do better academically but the thing is when it comes to offering a service sometimes it consists of manual labour or practical work which men tend to be better at.

[__inthemaking]

I think men are more likely to be naturally smarter than women but women are more hard working. In university, if you're not hard working, you won't excel even if you're a genius. I have lots of guy friends that are way better at calculus and physics than me in uni yet I still got a higher mark than them because I did all the textbook questions and optional assignments, while they did not, and similar questions showed up on the exam.

[littleone]

I'd beg to differ. Most of the guys i know are slow.
True, women generally are more hard working(though i wish i was. *sigh*), but that's because most of them know what their priorities are. I think that makes a big difference.
Also, more women are being encouraged, and gender bias is reducing due to awareness, giving women a better chance to excel.
Well this just leaves one thing to say. 'I told you so'

[laryxle]

I read somewhere that studies have found that girls tend to do better than boys in a co-ed environment, whereas boys excel more in a single sex environment. Applying this to places like universities, the trend is apparent; classes are mixed, and girls will tend to do better in this environment. It doesn't mean that girls or guys are smarter, but an optimal educational environment isn't always present.

And girls are definitely a bit better at organisation than guys are, which helps in uni.

[1-2-3]

Some women are smarter than some men and some men are smarter than some women.

What we are talking about here are the averages. It is really annoying when let's say a guy tells me 'I am a guy and hence better than you at math.' In general, guys might be better at/more interested in math than girls. However, that does not mean that all guys are better than girls at math.

Also, subjects such as math and physics have been long dominated by men. ToK for you: How do existing social norms influence your interest in/desire to study further mathematics or physics?

...Because we all do know that the more you are interested in something, the better you'll be at it.

Now, on average, I do not think that guys are 'naturally smarter' than women or that women are hardworking.
I know far too many extremely hard-working guys and not-so-hardworking and yet high achieveing girls to say something like that.


However, high academic achievement is never only hardwork or only natural talent.
You need to have a bit of both.

EDIT:
Thought I should comment on the 'myth' that most fields such as medicine or law are dominated by men. People tend to think so, because in the past, that was the case. Due to inequal opportunities and such.

Edited by 1-2-3, Jun 07, 2009 - 17:46.

[Vvi]

laryxle, on Jun 07, 2009 - 14:54, said:

I read somewhere that studies have found that girls tend to do better than boys in a co-ed environment, whereas boys excel more in a single sex environment. Applying this to places like universities, the trend is apparent; classes are mixed, and girls will tend to do better in this environment. It doesn't mean that girls or guys are smarter, but an optimal educational environment isn't always present.

And girls are definitely a bit better at organisation than guys are, which helps in uni.

Girls do better academically in schools without boys; it may be the same for boys too. These articles provide evidence of that http://sify.com/news...gle-sex_schools , http://classroom-iss...nglesex_classes and http://www.guardian....ls-gcse-results . The argument for this in another article I read ages ago was that boys are louder/rowdier and take up more of the teacher's attention in class, so girls get a lot less attention.

I might be up for going to an all-girls school for that reason, but I definitely wouldn't go to one for all my school life (the last few years of high school would be fine) because it puts you in an unrealistic setting: there's no way you would ever live without any interaction with the opposite sex unless you were a nun. Which is also why I don't support single-sex universities; you're an adult, yet you're choosing to shut yourself away from the world and trying to learn life skills without an important component: the other sex. How would you handle relationships (personal, boss-employee, anything) later on then?

Edited by Vvi, Jun 07, 2009 - 18:47.

[Sandwich]

MUAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

Who cares about rationalising this?
We won!

Edited by Sandwich, Jun 07, 2009 - 19:58.

[Aboo]

I'm not surprised about that. Women are always smarter, and that's not only at university. In schools, and usually at life too. Most men are slow and have way too much testosterone to think straight.

[Redstar]

Aboo, on Jun 07, 2009 - 20:17, said:

I'm not surprised about that. Women are always smarter, and that's not only at university. In schools, and usually at life too. Most men are slow and have way too much testosterone to think straight.

While I agree that on average women outperform men at universities and schools, to say that the same is true "at life" is very unreasonable, since, first of all, how do you measure an individual's smartness at life? There's no way you can get an average of who is better at life.

Edited by Redstar, Jun 07, 2009 - 21:25.

[Vvi]

I saw on BBC that reserachers predicted women will outnumber men as doctors by 2017 in the UK. And they want to fix that. What the heck is wrong with people? If there's too many men in a profession, they say "Oh, we'll try to make the profession more enticing to women, but some professions are traditionally male-dominated". But if women start to outnumber men, the researchers come up with reasons why that's bad (e.g. Women will want more time off to raise a family and so doctors will need more flexible hours) and try to stop it happening. Accept the reality: women are gaining ground and you can't stop it, and shouldn't try to. Unless you're a chauvinist pig.

[Redstar]

Vvi, on Jun 07, 2009 - 22:46, said:

Accept the reality: women are gaining ground and you can't stop it, and shouldn't try to. Unless you're a chauvinist pig.

I really hope you aren't directing this to me. I agree that wanting to fix the fact that women are outnumbering men as doctors is extremely stupid. If more women are becoming doctors, then why the hell should there be a reason to stop that?

Edited by Redstar, Jun 08, 2009 - 03:29.

[Aboo]

Redstar, on Jun 07, 2009 - 21:24, said:

Aboo, on Jun 07, 2009 - 20:17, said:

I'm not surprised about that. Women are always smarter, and that's not only at university. In schools, and usually at life too. Most men are slow and have way too much testosterone to think straight.

While I agree that on average women outperform men at universities and schools, to say that the same is true "at life" is very unreasonable, since, first of all, how do you measure an individual's smartness at life? There's no way you can get an average of who is better at life.

By the sample of the population I go by, i.e. my friends and people I know, women have the edge to go further all around. I didn't say that all men are meat heads because they're not. I'm not one, and you're not one probably, I don't know you.

Smartness at life is measured by a lot of things. Their goals, what they want their life to be, how far do they go to meet those targets, their behaviour to the people around them. One can tell if the person he's speaking to will go far in life or not.

And I'm not saying either that all women are smarter, I should have made that clearer. There is a balance of smart people, not so smart people, average people and stupid people. This is why there are some people who fly high, and some people who just stay down and don't get anywhere in life. It may just be that in the smart people category, there maybe more smart women than men. And we're seeing it now because for the past so many years, and even today women were, and some still are, oppressed from doing what they want. We're seeing more women going forward today because societal repression is fading away.

And to those people who are trying to find a way to discourage female doctors, they're educated bigoted idiots who are still stuck in the early 20th century.

[Irene]

laryxle, on Jun 07, 2009 - 14:54, said:

I read somewhere that studies have found that girls tend to do better than boys in a co-ed environment, whereas boys excel more in a single sex environment. Applying this to places like universities, the trend is apparent; classes are mixed, and girls will tend to do better in this environment. It doesn't mean that girls or guys are smarter, but an optimal educational environment isn't always present.

And girls are definitely a bit better at organisation than guys are, which helps in uni.

Oh yeah? Maybe I should get my flirt on, you know... to gain that little bit of advantage
Haha kidding. A lot of guys are really smart, they just don't care about academics until later on. Doesn't mean they don't do as well in life though.

1-2-3, on Jun 07, 2009 - 17:44, said:

Thought I should comment on the 'myth' that most fields such as medicine or law are dominated by men. People tend to think so, because in the past, that was the case. Due to inequal opportunities and such.

Surgery (esp neuro) is still predominantly performed by men, but that's changing too. Just look at our dear Ash! (whatever she becomes)

[biochem]

Its true. Woman have a detached mentality about things.
a good perspicacity for good and difficult choices.

At my school though it is the guys that do better. They rule Calc as a majority, but no individually.
Woman always have and always will be, ahead. Especially with the coming times.

[Ruan Chun Xian]

Yet, there is this: http://www.ibsurviva...?showtopic=6481
I find it ironic.

[Vvi]

According to an article I read on BBC, the reason that there still exists a salary gap between the sexes is because women expect to be paid a lot less for their work, and ask for lower starting salaries than men. A woman might ask for a salary of $25,000 because she knows that that's the starting salary for her profession, while a man might ask for $35,000 even though he knows the starting salary is $25,000. That might get pulled down to 30,000, but he still ends up with a higher salary than the woman. It comes down to women being humble and settling for less. I think the average difference between salaries for men and women in the same professions was $21,000. That's a lot of aksing that women aren't doing. Now that I know this, I'm gonna add $10,000-15,000 to the salary I expect, and see what I end up with. You never know, if the employer really wants you, he/she might give you your first asking salary.

There's an entire article titled "Girls hampered by failure fears" on BBC, http://news.bbc.co.u...ion/8090019.stm .

'Girls have a greater fear of failure than boys despite outperforming them at all stages of school, a report said. And these worries could seriously affect their chances of succeeding in school and work, the Equality and Human Rights Commission study claimed. ... It said despite girls' success at GCSE, three quarters of women still ended up in the "five Cs" of employment - cleaning, catering, caring, cashiering and clerical. This was partly due to stereotyping of subject choices at school, and school staff consciously or unconsciously encouraging boys and girls to seek what they perceived to be gender appropriate subjects.

It found that although a child's social background was the biggest determinant of whether they would succeed, gender also had an effect. Some 46% of white working class girls feared educational failure, compared with about a quarter of white middle class boys. White working class boys and white middle class girls were equally fearful of failure on 38%. Children from poorer backgrounds tended to be less confident of success generally.'

Gotta love stereotyping, right?

Redstar, on Jun 07, 2009 - 23:00, said:

Vvi, on Jun 07, 2009 - 22:46, said:

Accept the reality: women are gaining ground and you can't stop it, and shouldn't try to. Unless you're a chauvinist pig.

I really hope you aren't directing this to me. I agree that wanting to fix the fact that women are outnumbering men as doctors is extremely stupid. If more women are becoming doctors, then why the hell should there be a reason to stop that?

I wasn't thinking of you at all when I wrote this. I hadn't read your comments. It was just directed at society in general.

Edited by Vvi, Jun 08, 2009 - 23:43.

[faith]

I think it's depending on the subject area and interests. For example, you are more likely to find men who are performing well in areas such as engineering and computer science because there simply are more men who are interested in those subjects.

[Vvi]

faith, on Jun 09, 2009 - 08:09, said:

I think it's depending on the subject area and interests. For example, you are more likely to find men who are performing well in areas such as engineering and computer science because there simply are more men who are interested in those subjects.

The reason that men are more interested in those subjects is because of gender stereotyping (see what I wrote in my previous post about teachers subconsciously encouraging girls to take "feminine" subjects). I know girls studying engineering in university, but that's because their parents didn't try to push them away from "masculine" careers.

In the Middle East, a lot of women end up as teachers because it's seen as a 'safe' job. There's only one male teacher in our elementary school. Yet all the school board members are men. Women are encouraged to take on jobs where they can nurture children and look after them, while men are pushed towards administrative tasks.

[Irene]

Vvi, on Jun 08, 2009 - 12:53, said:

It said despite girls' success at GCSE, three quarters of women still ended up in the "five Cs" of employment - cleaning, catering, caring, cashiering and clerical. This was partly due to stereotyping of subject choices at school, and school staff consciously or unconsciously encouraging boys and girls to seek what they perceived to be gender appropriate subjects.

Hmm, it depends. For a general summer job, it's unlikely that I will get anything better than minimum wage, so I applied to food + clothing stores (catering/cashiering). Now both places where I've been offered interviews are predominantly female - meaning my male counterparts actually have a harder time searching for an easy summer job. The managers/owners, on the other hand, are male (interesting).

After a year of university or whatever, I'll look for 'higher' jobs that pay better. But for now, especially with the state the economy is in, I'll settle for any job.

Edited by Irene, Jun 09, 2009 - 13:13.