Homosexuality

[Sandwich]

First of all, we're not the most adequate people to be debating this topic lol We're just students that have no deep knowledge about this whole Morality topic.

However, just look at what is happening. Gay people are growing. Not because they now have the freedom to assume themselves as gay but because of other aspects. We've actually reverted what is the basis of democracy: we've turned the minorities more powerful than the majorities. You see, all the politicians want, is to have votes. Thus, they give freedom of speech and freedom of sex. But what are the repercussions to the society?

Not to begin with the whole religious part of it and to mention all that has been said, it definitely corrupts the society. Usually, gay couples that adopt a child will almost force their adopted child to be gay as well. So, where is the freedom of choice here? A child is constantly given the opportunity to experience something that corrupts their mind with thoughts that most of the times are not real. Gay people say that we are all gay, it's just the society that has been telling us that is wrong. And to prove this, they use Freud's method (which btw, has been considered to not be valid for most of the psychological problems...). Where is ethics here? They are disturbing a person's mind.

Now look at this in a more small world. Imagine two best friends. Doesn't matter their sex. One thinks that he's having feelings for the other. As all of you must've experienced, when a person starts to like the other (in opposite sex) it always gives either the wrong way or they end up dating. Now, as the other one is not gay, what will happen is an obsession to turn the other one gay because gay people cannot accept the fact that others are not gay (AND if you actually analyse their attitude, gay people turn out to be the most aggressive despite the fact that they seem to be fragile at a first glance). For gay people, there is no such thing as friendship. Friendship is just a beginning to a relationship. This is another reason to a problem they have: Gay people cannot maintain a relationship stable because they are not capable of being with the same person forever (which does not happen in real marriage - if the marriage is properly held and husband and wife are committed). No matter what happens, they will not stay together if another gay comes. Gay people tend to have (and sorry for using the word) orgies. Hence, I ask, where is the concept of matrimony?? There is no such thing for them.

It was not that deep in terms of TOK but it was meant to talk about what really goes on in reality in a society that accepts homosexuality. Friendship is not a natural thing. It was created by Man (if not by God) and it's quite a strange bond that you won't find in any other species. All the other ones just live in community but there won't be any bond that we can name as friendship.

Hope you got my ideas. and yes, I'm absolutely against homosexuality...

For serious? There's not one of those statements which isn't false. To say that EVERYBODY of a particular sort is like so-and-so is never going to be right. People are all different! It's like me saying that all English people are smarter than Welsh people... some English people will be smarter, some Welsh people will be smarter. You cannot simply state something about a large group that way.

To be honest, I've never heard of a gay parent 'forcing' their child to become gay. You can't really make somebody feel emotions that way in any case, even if some mentalist did try! There are plenty of stories of straight people 'forcing' their gay children to become straight, of course. Basically nobody can make somebody else change their sexuality, and I think that anybody who wishes to do so is in the wrong.

Plenty of gay people have non-gay friends (I mean, I have gay friends and I'm not gay, miracle of miracles) and equally many gay people do live in stable relationships. Equally many don't, but then you can't tar everybody with the same brush. Plenty of people, gay or not, fail quite badly at holding down relationships.

Everybody is equally equipped to talk about morality and ethics, there's no such thing as an expert. Everybody has their own morals/ethics, after all. In my opinion, homosexuality isn't a 'moral' issue any more than ginger people are a 'moral' issue. I can't morally object to them because there's no ethical reason for it. It'd sound looney to say "ginger people are wrong", after all. That and also homosexuality isn't a thing you can be against. You can't stop other people from doing what they want. Nobody can force them to be straight any more than they can force you to be gay, and I hope you'd agree that if one of those is wrong, the other is too!

On a final note, TOK has nothing to do with morality or ethics. Applying 'TOK' to anything is an empty statement unless you're talking about a TOK essay/presentation, this isn't TOK, it's just thinking. Unless you start relating it back to the IB Hexagon, the process of thinking isn't a subject

[Guest JimmyK]

OHHHH and I forgot!!, just look at most of the pedophiles... They are in the majority of the cases, homosexual. There's a reason for them to choose mostly little BOYS and not girls. Between the ages of 8 to 10, boys and girls have almost the same appearance (That's why Justin Bieber is still a little boy that hasn't gone through maturation...lol - sorry for any girl that got hurt ). Therefore, pedophiles pick up those boys that have most trace of a girl, if you actually notice it. However, they don't want to admit it...

Another thing they definitely don't want to admit is that homosexuality is a mental illness. It's actually curable with a proper therapy from a psychologist that is morally decent enough to give the freedom of choice to the person because what really happens is that psychologists say that it's alright that it's normal and that it's no problem...

Ahh, and to those who say that it doesn't matter if only they don't do it publicly or if you're not convinced yet, imagine that your best friend turns gay... will you join them?? o.O

[Chronofox]

OHHHH and I forgot!!, just look at most of the pedophiles... They are in the majority of the cases, homosexual. There's a reason for them to choose mostly little BOYS and not girls. Between the ages of 8 to 10, boys and girls have almost the same appearance (That's why Justin Bieber is still a little boy that hasn't gone through maturation...lol - sorry for any girl that got hurt ). Therefore, pedophiles pick up those boys that have most trace of a girl, if you actually notice it. However, they don't want to admit it...

I have never heard of the statistic that pedophiles prefer boys over girls. Furthermore, you're saying that all homosexuals are pedophiles, which is definitely untrue..

Another thing they definitely don't want to admit is that homosexuality is a mental illness. It's actually curable with a proper therapy from a psychologist that is morally decent enough to give the freedom of choice to the person because what really happens is that psychologists say that it's alright that it's normal and that it's no problem...

No, just no. Where are your sources? And if you're not gay yourself, then you are in no position to assume for others that homosexuality is a choice.

Ahh, and to those who say that it doesn't matter if only they don't do it publicly or if you're not convinced yet, imagine that your best friend turns gay... will you join them?? o.O

I couldn't care less if my best friend was gay. And what does "joining them" have anything to do with whether or not homosexuality should be morally acceptable or not?

[Proletariat]

First of all, we're not the most adequate people to be debating this topic lol We're just students that have no deep knowledge about this whole Morality topic.

However, just look at what is happening. Gay people are growing. Not because they now have the freedom to assume themselves as gay but because of other aspects. We've actually reverted what is the basis of democracy: we've turned the minorities more powerful than the majorities. You see, all the politicians want, is to have votes. Thus, they give freedom of speech and freedom of sex. But what are the repercussions to the society?

Not to begin with the whole religious part of it and to mention all that has been said, it definitely corrupts the society. Usually, gay couples that adopt a child will almost force their adopted child to be gay as well. So, where is the freedom of choice here? A child is constantly given the opportunity to experience something that corrupts their mind with thoughts that most of the times are not real. Gay people say that we are all gay, it's just the society that has been telling us that is wrong. And to prove this, they use Freud's method (which btw, has been considered to not be valid for most of the psychological problems...). Where is ethics here? They are disturbing a person's mind.

Now look at this in a more small world. Imagine two best friends. Doesn't matter their sex. One thinks that he's having feelings for the other. As all of you must've experienced, when a person starts to like the other (in opposite sex) it always gives either the wrong way or they end up dating. Now, as the other one is not gay, what will happen is an obsession to turn the other one gay because gay people cannot accept the fact that others are not gay (AND if you actually analyse their attitude, gay people turn out to be the most aggressive despite the fact that they seem to be fragile at a first glance). For gay people, there is no such thing as friendship. Friendship is just a beginning to a relationship. This is another reason to a problem they have: Gay people cannot maintain a relationship stable because they are not capable of being with the same person forever (which does not happen in real marriage - if the marriage is properly held and husband and wife are committed). No matter what happens, they will not stay together if another gay comes. Gay people tend to have (and sorry for using the word) orgies. Hence, I ask, where is the concept of matrimony?? There is no such thing for them.

It was not that deep in terms of TOK but it was meant to talk about what really goes on in reality in a society that accepts homosexuality. Friendship is not a natural thing. It was created by Man (if not by God) and it's quite a strange bond that you won't find in any other species. All the other ones just live in community but there won't be any bond that we can name as friendship.

Hope you got my ideas. and yes, I'm absolutely against homosexuality...

Gay people are "growing"? Really. So homosexuality was invented... when? During the Industrial Revolution? Do you honestly believe that homosexuality didn't exist in Medieval, Classic or Pre-historic times? Never mind the fact that there are hundreds of species of animals that have exhibited homosexual behaviour, species that arguably do not have any concept of "civilization".

Your understanding of democracy is also rather malformed. It is true that the American Constitution protects minority rights, but if you're going to extend that to saying minority rights are trumping majority rights, and in all democracies, then you've got to elaborate and explain your rather peculiar thesis a little more. As it stands, it just looks like as if you could perhaps use a little more background knowledge of democratic systems.

Also, perhaps Portuguese politics is different, but in North America for the past four decades economic policy has trumped social policy. Politicians don't win votes promising more freedoms. If you're a Republican you would win more promising less freedoms. But social stances like homosexuality, abortion, etc. are 95% ideological, and pander to political bases. They don't actually help any one politician or party win.

Usually, gay couples that adopt a child will almost force their adopted child to be gay as well.

Oh really? Do you have statistics to prove that? Because the only cases of parents forcing their child to be anything that I've heard are straight parents forcing their children to be straight also. It astounds me that you would rather make up stories, while embracing parents who would resort to methods like exorcism to "purge" the gayness from their child.

I have also never had a gay person tell me that they believe everyone is secretly gay. Granted, I don't know many gay people, living in a conservative province, but I have never heard, seen, read, or been informed of anyone advocating such a stance other than yourself, interestingly enough. As for Freud, it doesn't take homosexuality to know that the majority of his theories are completely outdated by modern psychological standards; all it takes to realize that is intelligence.

The rest of your post is irrelevant, since it's based upon your absurd assumptions on the minds of every single gay person in the world. Just three things:

1) The most intelligent animal species also form friendships; it's not exclusive to Homo sapien.

2) Studies have show that gay swans make better parents than heterosexual swans; same-sex divorce rates in one of the Scandinavian countries - I forget which - was lower than that of heterosexual couples.

3) I'm sorry, I don't know what kind of sheltered life you live, but straight people are very much capable of forming orgies too. I mean, you live in Portugal for God's sake.

OHHHH and I forgot!!, just look at most of the pedophiles... They are in the majority of the cases, homosexual. There's a reason for them to choose mostly little BOYS and not girls. Between the ages of 8 to 10, boys and girls have almost the same appearance (That's why Justin Bieber is still a little boy that hasn't gone through maturation...lol - sorry for any girl that got hurt ). Therefore, pedophiles pick up those boys that have most trace of a girl, if you actually notice it. However, they don't want to admit it...

Another thing they definitely don't want to admit is that homosexuality is a mental illness. It's actually curable with a proper therapy from a psychologist that is morally decent enough to give the freedom of choice to the person because what really happens is that psychologists say that it's alright that it's normal and that it's no problem...

Ahh, and to those who say that it doesn't matter if only they don't do it publicly or if you're not convinced yet, imagine that your best friend turns gay... will you join them?? o.O

Lol. Oh boy, the posts just get more and more regressive.

Okay. In Alberta, the most conservative province, homosexuality hasn't been listed a mental illness since the '50s. I thought Europe generally had competent health care systems? Also, remember that when you say "psychologist that is morally decent", you are talking about decent with reference to your system of morality. Let's be clear on that. And that is strictly your opinion, not that of a psychologist. And weren't you the one that was talking about how we as students shouldn't be delving into moral debates? Or have you decided that you're in a better position to perform psychological diagnoses than medical professionals?

If one of my friends came out to me, I would be okay with it. It might be strange at first, I admit - I can't see any of my closest friends being gay - but I don't see how it would change our relationship at all. And your apparently supernatural ability to read the minds of every homosexual on the face of this planet hasn't convinced me otherwise.

Pedophilia =/= homosexuality. Full stop. Again, I challenge you to actually find a medical study that proves otherwise, other than make-belief assertions or propaganda campaigns from the Right. It took me 3 minutes of Googling to find this site: http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/rainbow/html/facts_molestation.html

The first study found that 47% of the surveyed child molesters were "fixated", or mentally incapable of developing an adult sexual orientation. 40% was heterosexual. 13% was bisexual.

The second study found that of the sampled child abuse cases seen in an emergency room, only 1% of cases in which a molester was identified was a homosexual incidence.

The third study found that homosexual males were no more aroused to male children than heterosexual males were to female children.

I've given my position, and I've supported my medical, scientific assertion with evidence. Where's yours?

By the way, Bieber's 16.

[Papi]

OHHHH and I forgot!!, just look at most of the pedophiles... They are in the majority of the cases, homosexual. There's a reason for them to choose mostly little BOYS and not girls. Between the ages of 8 to 10, boys and girls have almost the same appearance (That's why Justin Bieber is still a little boy that hasn't gone through maturation...lol - sorry for any girl that got hurt ). Therefore, pedophiles pick up those boys that have most trace of a girl, if you actually notice it. However, they don't want to admit it...

Another thing they definitely don't want to admit is that homosexuality is a mental illness. It's actually curable with a proper therapy from a psychologist that is morally decent enough to give the freedom of choice to the person because what really happens is that psychologists say that it's alright that it's normal and that it's no problem...

Ahh, and to those who say that it doesn't matter if only they don't do it publicly or if you're not convinced yet, imagine that your best friend turns gay... will you join them?? o.O

O_o. Whoa. . .Well as a guy with gay friends and a straight supporter of the Gay community; That's actually really wrong. Most paedophiles aren't gay, in fact most paedophiles are straight. you mostly hear about little girls going missing and getting abducted (most known example is probably Madeleine Mccann). Also saying every gay person's just standing outside of school gates or on street corners waiting to bounce on anything with a pulse and same-sex genitalia is completely inaccurate, gay people are some of the nicest people I know.

Okay I'd seriously like to see your sources to this information, because it is the most misguided ''fact'' I've ever heard. Neurologic studies, I think, in Germany have proven that homosexuality is in the child at birth, the brain of a gay man was different from the brain of a straight man, it had more feministic brain-waves or something. Which cannot be altered or ''taken away'' therapeutically.

And finally, I think that homosexual couples should embrace PDA (public display of affection), if I walked by a same sex couple making out down town I wouldn't think "Oh that's disgusting", or "That should be banned" I'd think "Good for them, they're showing off how much they love for each-other and couldn't care less what narrow minded people thought". As a final note, if you stop being friends with your best friend because they're gay, all I can say is that is one of the most indecent things to do. You were best friends with them because of their personality and their characteristics, not their sexual orientation.

[Bartosz jez]

Just to make long story short: homosexuality IS NOT a disease.

It's natural people differ. Some are left-handed, some are short, the other ones have beards but some eat only vegetables.

However, it doesn't mean I like watching gay couples kissing on the street. You can accuse me of being homophobe but what if I don't like watching TV? Is it something different?

[Morpheus]

Just to make long story short: homosexuality IS NOT a disease.

It's natural people differ. Some are left-handed, some are short, the other ones have beards but some eat only vegetables.

However, it doesn't mean I like watching gay couples kissing on the street. You can accuse me of being homophobe but what if I don't like watching TV? Is it something different?

Some people don't like watching straight people kissing in the street.

Everyone should have equal rights to do what they want.

[Guest Red XII]

Just to make long story short: homosexuality IS NOT a disease.

It's natural people differ. Some are left-handed, some are short, the other ones have beards but some eat only vegetables.

However, it doesn't mean I like watching gay couples kissing on the street. You can accuse me of being homophobe but what if I don't like watching TV? Is it something different?

That's like saying people shouldn't eat meat because it might disgust or offend vegetarians. If straight people can kiss in the street (which they should be able to do, as it's not harming anyone), then so can gay people (it's still not harming anyone).

Ultimately, the purpose of "morality" is to ensure the functionality of society. Society functions best when people interact in a certain way, which we see as morality. Things that are counterproductive to society - that obstruct the goal of society to provide a higher quality of life to the individuals within it (which comes from the idea that socially, the whole is greater than the sum of the parts) - are considered immoral. For example, stealing is counterproductive to society, because it undermines many of the useful economic actions in society and requires people to waste time and effort protecting their possessions. While stealing may profit an individual, it harms society as a whole. Thus, stealing is considered immoral.

Homosexuality does not harm society as a whole, because homosexuals are just as productive as anyone else. Yes, there are homosexuals who are harmful to society, but no more so than there are heterosexuals who are harmful to society. Saying homosexuals are harmful to society is just as ridiculous as saying blacks are harmful to society. Therefore, homosexuality is not immoral. Further, it is desirable for homosexuals to engage in romantic and sexual relationships with each other, because it can be helpful to society as a whole, as it provides strong social bonds between people and allows people to work together extremely well.

What is really detrimental to society is not homosexuality, but prejudice against homosexuals. It's just as detrimental to society as racism or sexism. It divides society and makes it more difficult for people to work together, which makes society less effective. Thus, prejudice against homosexuals is immoral.

[Morpheus]

Just to make long story short: homosexuality IS NOT a disease.

It's natural people differ. Some are left-handed, some are short, the other ones have beards but some eat only vegetables.

However, it doesn't mean I like watching gay couples kissing on the street. You can accuse me of being homophobe but what if I don't like watching TV? Is it something different?

That's like saying people shouldn't eat meat because it might disgust or offend vegetarians. If straight people can kiss in the street (which they should be able to do, as it's not harming anyone), then so can gay people (it's still not harming anyone).

Ultimately, the purpose of "morality" is to ensure the functionality of society. Society functions best when people interact in a certain way, which we see as morality. Things that are counterproductive to society - that obstruct the goal of society to provide a higher quality of life to the individuals within it (which comes from the idea that socially, the whole is greater than the sum of the parts) - are considered immoral. For example, stealing is counterproductive to society, because it undermines many of the useful economic actions in society and requires people to waste time and effort protecting their possessions. While stealing may profit an individual, it harms society as a whole. Thus, stealing is considered immoral.

Homosexuality does not harm society as a whole, because homosexuals are just as productive as anyone else. Yes, there are homosexuals who are harmful to society, but no more so than there are heterosexuals who are harmful to society. Saying homosexuals are harmful to society is just as ridiculous as saying blacks are harmful to society. Therefore, homosexuality is not immoral. Further, it is desirable for homosexuals to engage in romantic and sexual relationships with each other, because it can be helpful to society as a whole, as it provides strong social bonds between people and allows people to work together extremely well.

What is really detrimental to society is not homosexuality, but prejudice against homosexuals. It's just as detrimental to society as racism or sexism. It divides society and makes it more difficult for people to work together, which makes society less effective. Thus, prejudice against homosexuals is immoral.

Nice argument

[Matthew Sinclair]

OHHHH and I forgot!!, just look at most of the pedophiles... They are in the majority of the cases, homosexual. There's a reason for them to choose mostly little BOYS and not girls. Between the ages of 8 to 10, boys and girls have almost the same appearance (That's why Justin Bieber is still a little boy that hasn't gone through maturation...lol - sorry for any girl that got hurt ). Therefore, pedophiles pick up those boys that have most trace of a girl, if you actually notice it. However, they don't want to admit it...

Another thing they definitely don't want to admit is that homosexuality is a mental illness. It's actually curable with a proper therapy from a psychologist that is morally decent enough to give the freedom of choice to the person because what really happens is that psychologists say that it's alright that it's normal and that it's no problem...

Ahh, and to those who say that it doesn't matter if only they don't do it publicly or if you're not convinced yet, imagine that your best friend turns gay... will you join them?? o.O

Most pedophiles are not actually homosexual. I'm sure they fall into a similar proportion of homo/hetero/bi sexuality as the rest of society. And even if it were "most", that means that there are still heterosexual pedophiles. So you have chosen to focus only on the homosexual ones? And even though I don't like Justin Bieber, your argument is flawed.

By a psychologist that is "morally decent" I think you mean a psychologist that is "morally corrupt". That would mean they are going against the statements published by the WHO, the UN, and numerous other organisations that state that conversion therapy for homosexuality is harmful to the individual and doesn't actually work; it states that those who are "cured" only are claiming to be so. Just to let you know, the studies show that very few even "claim" to have been cured, many of those who have undergone such treatment state it was ineffective and damaging. Even the conversion therapy websites state that those who have undergone such treatment may only be able to "mask" their homosexual desires and inclinations. Also, the DSM IVR, which is one of the most widely used references for mental illnesses clearly states that it is NOT a mental disorder. They changed that definition long ago due to substantial scientific evidence to suggest otherwise.

And by the way, you don't "turn gay". It's more of a gradual realisation of something that has always been the case. I would hope that if your best friend were gay, that you would support them and continue to love them.

I'm trying to remain objective here, but your post is infuriating and exemplifies someone lacking the ability to reason successfully.

I'm upset by what you said, and I'm sure my boyfriend would be, too.

---

And by the way, if you think homosexuality is a mental disorder, then you might want to find a psychiatrist, rather than a psychologist. Just giving you a heads up

---

First of all, we're not the most adequate people to be debating this topic lol We're just students that have no deep knowledge about this whole Morality topic.

However, just look at what is happening. Gay people are growing. Not because they now have the freedom to assume themselves as gay but because of other aspects. We've actually reverted what is the basis of democracy: we've turned the minorities more powerful than the majorities. You see, all the politicians want, is to have votes. Thus, they give freedom of speech and freedom of sex. But what are the repercussions to the society?

Not to begin with the whole religious part of it and to mention all that has been said, it definitely corrupts the society. Usually, gay couples that adopt a child will almost force their adopted child to be gay as well. So, where is the freedom of choice here? A child is constantly given the opportunity to experience something that corrupts their mind with thoughts that most of the times are not real. Gay people say that we are all gay, it's just the society that has been telling us that is wrong. And to prove this, they use Freud's method (which btw, has been considered to not be valid for most of the psychological problems...). Where is ethics here? They are disturbing a person's mind.

Now look at this in a more small world. Imagine two best friends. Doesn't matter their sex. One thinks that he's having feelings for the other. As all of you must've experienced, when a person starts to like the other (in opposite sex) it always gives either the wrong way or they end up dating. Now, as the other one is not gay, what will happen is an obsession to turn the other one gay because gay people cannot accept the fact that others are not gay (AND if you actually analyse their attitude, gay people turn out to be the most aggressive despite the fact that they seem to be fragile at a first glance). For gay people, there is no such thing as friendship. Friendship is just a beginning to a relationship. This is another reason to a problem they have: Gay people cannot maintain a relationship stable because they are not capable of being with the same person forever (which does not happen in real marriage - if the marriage is properly held and husband and wife are committed). No matter what happens, they will not stay together if another gay comes. Gay people tend to have (and sorry for using the word) orgies. Hence, I ask, where is the concept of matrimony?? There is no such thing for them.

It was not that deep in terms of TOK but it was meant to talk about what really goes on in reality in a society that accepts homosexuality. Friendship is not a natural thing. It was created by Man (if not by God) and it's quite a strange bond that you won't find in any other species. All the other ones just live in community but there won't be any bond that we can name as friendship.

Hope you got my ideas. and yes, I'm absolutely against homosexuality...

So much to respond to...

No, minorities do not have more power than the majorities, you are misinformed. They minorities are slowly getting the same freedoms as the majorities, but that doesn't mean the same power.

Exactly, what ARE the repercussions to society? More people that are happy? More freedom? More love? More equality? More justice? My word, the horror! the horror! Is it just me, or do those things actually sound good?

Homosexual couples with children do no such thing! Even if they tried to, they couldn't. It's a biological thing. I hereby quote this man, the child of lesbian parents. I ask you, in the name of debate, to watch it with an open mind:

I am gay. I do not say that about others. Nor do any of the other gay people I know. Also, I have a boyfriend as I said above, yet almost all of my friends are heterosexual. I have friendships, which I know is something that you may find hard to believe. I don't cross the boundaries with my heterosexual, male friends. I respect them and they respect me.

Also, orgies exist in every sexuality. I myself, do NOT like them. I have never had one and I never plan to. I am monogamous with my partner, and that's how it will be forever. We trust each other, and we plan to marry one day. This is actually quite a common thing in the gay community, which you may find shocking. By the way, "monogamy" was the word you were looking for rather than "matrimony". Matrimony relates to marriage. Both in fact, are present in the gay community

I think you'll find you're also against having an open-mind. Am I right? Have you at least thought of the counter-arguments? (my arguments and the arguments of the majority of the other posters it would seem). I have thought about your arguments I can assure you. I thought about them all the time when I was a child questioning myself and my sexuality. So at least my opinions have weight.

Edited May 16, 2011 by Keel
Merged Posts

[shalala]

I do not have much great research on what the bible says on homosexuals but saw this and it expresses how I feel!

If someone says that homosexuality does not exist in animal kingdom, for your information a friends cat is homosexual; the owner have noticed a relationship between the cat and another cat where both have been humping eachother in the butt.

[shalala]

Noticed the url was wrong hope this is right now!

[Proletariat]

Lacey got her verse wrong, but it's still a fantastic retort. That religion/morality quote is a doozy though.

[febreezick]

We just covered that and came to the conclusion that there are no gay people. 'There are only gay acts', which is also a quote by some French philosopher whose name i don't recall right now. Personally, I believe that every human being has the right to love whomever they want. On the other hand sometimes I'm homophobic. Usually in cases where gays openly portray their interest in me and don't stop, even after I make it obvious that this interest isn't mutual. Also, I'm not a fan of gay parades, because as a sexual minority displaying ones sexual orientation in a extreme way openly in public might cause others to feel uncomfortable. However I believe that gays should be able to openly state their sexual orientation and also display it as long as it is in a decent way that doesn't offend others. I also believe that portraying ones sexuality through extreme mediums, such as indecent gay parades, will only make things worse for the gay community. As it creates prejudices, like that the gay parades represent the entire gay community and create a stereotype of a gay individual. Note, that I also dislike such indecent exposures of sexualities other than homosexuality. To conclude I respect everyones sexuality as long as it fits in with society to some extent and I dislike actions that are known to be disliked by other people in public, as it will keep tensions to a minimum.

I'm interested in how you came to the conclusion that there are no gay people. Does that mean there are no heterosexual people, only heterosexual acts? And if that is true what does that mean for people who are bisexual? Because, to the extent of my knowledge, there are no bisexual acts. What did the queer people in your discussion think of of this conclusion? I'm genuinely interested in your response.

I find what you say about LGBT pride parades to create a humorous situation because I'm going to one tomorrow. I have to say that I disagree with your opinion on Pride parades, perhaps because I don't think you understand the reason why they exist. The mere fact that LGBT people exist is offensive and uncomfortable to many people. Pride parades exist for the LGBT community to fight against the idea that because their sexualities or gender identities make people uncomfortable they should hide it or act like it doesn't exist. The idea that to make things better for the LGBT community they should stop acting so visibly LGBT is offensive. The LGBT community should not have to bend over backwards to make people comfortable about their sexual orientation or gender identity because no one else has to do that. No one has ever tried to make a gay person more comfortable with their heterosexuality by acting less heterosexual and it would be preposterous to act like they should.

As far as I am concerned, people should be allowed to act and be the way they are if they're not hurting anybody or breaking any laws. If anyone has problems with that they are the ones that need to change.

[febreezick]

Sexual orientation is not the business of any institution, State, organization, or anyone other than the individual in question. Not only that, but sexual orientation has absolutely no impact on the value of a citizen to the advancement of their society, nor does it play any factor in determining the merit of an individual.

Another thing: homosexuality isn't entirely nature nor is it entirely nurture. In fact, almost nothing is. As others have pointed out, homosexuality occurs in animals who wouldn't have suffered from those dangerous liberal ideas that some claim causes it. However, the idea of a "gay gene", and the fact that an individual can be born with a genetically coded sexual orientation seems equally ridiculous. Homosexuality is likely a mixture of genetics and environmental factors, ie. certain social/chemical/psychological stimulant in early childhood causes certain combination of gene expression. Statistics show that males who have older male siblings are likelier to be gay, and that this likelihood increases with each additional older male sibling.

One day, we may even be able to display the entire matrix of factors involved. But when we do, no one in their right mind is going to care about sexual orientation anyways.

I think I may love you.

And to add onto your second paragraphs studies shows that transgender individuals have brain chemistry and make-up more similar to the sex that they identify as then then sex they were assigned at birth. Not about homosexuality but interesting none the less.

[febreezick]

I think that homosexuals should be given rights to get married etc. but not to have children as it is not "normal" to have two fathers or two mothers and this kind of family can have some "bad" influence on child's mentality.

Studies have shown that children of lesbian parents are pretty much the same as children of heterosexual parents, except that children of lesbians "scored higher than kids in straight families on some psychological measures of self-esteem and confidence, did better academically and were less likely to have behavioral problems, such as rule-breaking and aggression." So, based off of these facts, it's better for a child to have two moms (or one mom who identifies as a lesbian) than a mother and a father.

Article:

http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1994480,00.html

[Morpheus]

First of all, we're not the most adequate people to be debating this topic lol We're just students that have no deep knowledge about this whole Morality topic.

However, just look at what is happening. Gay people are growing. Not because they now have the freedom to assume themselves as gay but because of other aspects. We've actually reverted what is the basis of democracy: we've turned the minorities more powerful than the majorities. You see, all the politicians want, is to have votes. Thus, they give freedom of speech and freedom of sex. But what are the repercussions to the society?

Not to begin with the whole religious part of it and to mention all that has been said, it definitely corrupts the society. Usually, gay couples that adopt a child will almost force their adopted child to be gay as well. So, where is the freedom of choice here? A child is constantly given the opportunity to experience something that corrupts their mind with thoughts that most of the times are not real. Gay people say that we are all gay, it's just the society that has been telling us that is wrong. And to prove this, they use Freud's method (which btw, has been considered to not be valid for most of the psychological problems...). Where is ethics here? They are disturbing a person's mind.

Now look at this in a more small world. Imagine two best friends. Doesn't matter their sex. One thinks that he's having feelings for the other. As all of you must've experienced, when a person starts to like the other (in opposite sex) it always gives either the wrong way or they end up dating. Now, as the other one is not gay, what will happen is an obsession to turn the other one gay because gay people cannot accept the fact that others are not gay (AND if you actually analyse their attitude, gay people turn out to be the most aggressive despite the fact that they seem to be fragile at a first glance). For gay people, there is no such thing as friendship. Friendship is just a beginning to a relationship. This is another reason to a problem they have: Gay people cannot maintain a relationship stable because they are not capable of being with the same person forever (which does not happen in real marriage - if the marriage is properly held and husband and wife are committed). No matter what happens, they will not stay together if another gay comes. Gay people tend to have (and sorry for using the word) orgies. Hence, I ask, where is the concept of matrimony?? There is no such thing for them.

It was not that deep in terms of TOK but it was meant to talk about what really goes on in reality in a society that accepts homosexuality. Friendship is not a natural thing. It was created by Man (if not by God) and it's quite a strange bond that you won't find in any other species. All the other ones just live in community but there won't be any bond that we can name as friendship.

Hope you got my ideas. and yes, I'm absolutely against homosexuality...

This post does slightly annoy me. You cannot speak for the entire homosexual demographic and by your stance I don't think you know many homosexuals personally. You have no argument - You are only backing up your prejudiced view with misconceptions

There have been some really interesting opinions so far. I've just come back from my holidays since I finished on the 19th of May. In a week I'm leaving the UK again for some summer sun and my boyfriend is coming with me. He wants to get married and I think we will soon now we're both 18.

I find it really interesting that some people seem to think so illogically.

Blind hate against homosexuality is just as unacceptable as any other form of discrimination.

I suppose even an IB TOK course can't open some peoples' minds.

[Matthew Sinclair]

Question:

For those who are homophobic/opposed to homosexuality,

Do you think I am a bad person? Like an innately bad individual who DESERVES to be punished, excluded, abused, bullied, forgotten by the laws that protect society's individuals, and condemned to eternal damnation etc etc etc? What about the millions of others like me? Do you think that the way others, perhaps including yourself, treat me and the rest of those with non-hetero sexualities, is fair and justified?

For most who read this, just like most who judge gay people, the only thing about us is that we're not (exclusively) attracted to a member of the opposite sex.

So I ask: who in this case really is wrong? How can not being straight make someone bad, or worthy of the aforementioned treatment by others? If you must judge someone, shouldn't you at least give them a fair trial first? At least get to know the person and their merits?

This doesn't mean you should be forced to like all gay people, but rather, you should like someone due to their merits, their personality, and how they interact with yourself and others around them. Doesn't that make more sense?

All I ever ask from others is to have an open mind, and to really think about this, rather then just conforming to a given point of view.

[Keel]

Question:

For those who are homophobic/opposed to homosexuality,

Do you think I am a bad person? Like an innately bad individual who DESERVES to be punished, excluded, abused, bullied, forgotten by the laws that protect society's individuals, and condemned to eternal damnation etc etc etc? What about the millions of others like me? Do you think that the way others, perhaps including yourself, treat me and the rest of those with non-hetero sexualities, is fair and justified?

For most who read this, just like most who judge gay people, the only thing about us is that we're not (exclusively) attracted to a member of the opposite sex.

So I ask: who in this case really is wrong? How can not being straight make someone bad, or worthy of the aforementioned treatment by others? If you must judge someone, shouldn't you at least give them a fair trial first? At least get to know the person and their merits?

This doesn't mean you should be forced to like all gay people, but rather, you should like someone due to their merits, their personality, and how they interact with yourself and others around them. Doesn't that make more sense?

All I ever ask from others is to have an open mind, and to really think about this, rather then just conforming to a given point of view.

I think you are either misunderstanding an important aspect of this discussion or you are over reacting. Indeed there are some who hold uneccessary prejudices against homosexuals based on flawed reasoning and a poor history with homosexuals who state homosexuals should not be allowed to vote, be seen in public ect. However, I think the main issue here is to develop the discussion from: "Is homosexuality 'right'?", with the ambigious conotations of what is 'right' or not embedded in the question to "Is homosexuality a development disorder?"

I have always felt that the topic of homosexuality should be approached medically and never politically. Although I dont think there are any explicit problems with having a large number of homosexuals in a population, the possibility of homosexuality being a medical disorder must be contemplated. For example Matthew, what if there was evidence that your current sexuality was determined by certain childhood factors which caused development disorders and there was now treatment, would you take it? If homosexuality is indeed a 'disorder' caused by childhood experience, should we prevent such a disorder?

These are the questions I think we should be asking ourselves, not should homosexuals burn in hell or should homosexuals be allowed to vote?

[Matthew Sinclair]

Well unfortunately there are many people... And by many, I mean the majority of the global population, who still think the way I suggested. Which I agree, it sounds mellodramatic, but I meant it more just to incite a reaction.

And if there were a pill or something, no I would not take it.

Clearly scientists and psychiatrists have contemplated what you've just said about the medical aspect of it. It used to be classified (for example in the DSM) as a mental illness, but they removed that classification decades ago.