When are you NOT allowed to take Ab Initio?

[Anya W]

I have two friends that are taking Ab Initio. One has been taking Spanish for five years, and is taking Ab Initio, and one has been taking French for four years, and is taking Ab Initio. Is this right? I'm in french with one of them and its just difficult for me.

[Julie]

According to my school, they say for IB you cannot take an ab inicio language if you have taken it for 2+ years. My friend had a problem with that, so she had to go to Spanish B and it is really difficult for her to keep up, but they said IB wouldn't allow her to do ab inicio in Spanish cause she took it before. She had to do B or do French ab inicio. I don't understand how they were allowed to do that. Your school must have pulled some strings.

[dessskris]

Well, I don't think there is an official regulation from IBO about whether you can take such subject depending how long you have studied such thing.

I think your friends are actually still allowed to do French and Spanish Ab Initio but logically they are capable of doing language B instead. You can always do Ab Initio unless it's not offered at your school, just like any other subject.

The good thing for them is that they can score a 7 very easily. The bad thing is that universities may look down on them if they know they have studied that language for so long and is taking Ab Initio.

Ask that friend of yours to help you in French btw

[Julie]

Actually, Desy, from what my school told me, IBO doesn't allow it if they see on your transcripts that you have taken the language before... My school tried to pull strings to get my friend into Spanish ab inicio, but they never succeeded, not she's in Spanish B.

[pumkinns]

julie, the IB isn't against it, I am arabic ab inition, but I studied in arabic for 4 years before I did my IB. but I can't go in for B because I haven't taken all the requirements and the studies the students have already taken.

I can read and write, but I don't know grammar, nor how to use arabic punctuation and structure a complete essay, so they put me in Ab. to get in the school must notice the need of help in the subject, and then after an exam is done. they decide where to put you. in Ab or B.

[dessskris]

Ohkaaay I went to look it up in the Group 2 Syllabus

Target Students: Which Course?

Ab initio SL is for a beginner who:

• has little or no previous experience of the language
  
• is taught outside the country or countries where the language is spoken

Language B SL is for a language learner who may not intend continuing study of the language beyond the Diploma Programme who:

• has 2 to 5 years experience of the target language
  
• is not taught other subjects in the target language
  
• is normally taught outside a country where the language is spoken
  
• is a beginner or near-beginner who lives in a country where the language is spoken

Language B HL is for a language learner who intends to study the language at this level for a future career, or to meet a Diploma Programme requirement, and who:

• has 4 to 5 years experience of the target language
  
• is not taught other subjects in the target language
  
• is normally taught outside a country where the language is spoken

(Language Ab Initio Guide 2002, page 6)

So by right your friends are not advised to take Ab Initio but...

You may want to talk about this to your IB Coordinator but make sure first that those 2 friends of yours are aware of this, ok.

[Julie]

julie, the IB isn't against it, I am arabic ab inition, but I studied in arabic for 4 years before I did my IB. but I can't go in for B because I haven't taken all the requirements and the studies the students have already taken.

I can read and write, but I don't know grammar, nor how to use arabic punctuation and structure a complete essay, so they put me in Ab. to get in the school must notice the need of help in the subject, and then after an exam is done. they decide where to put you. in Ab or B.

You can now see Desy's syllabus outline... You are actually not allowed to be taking arabic ab inicio... and yes, IB is against it. My friend faught for IB Spanish ab inicio, but they wouldn't let he cause she lived in Honduras for 3 years...

so... Breena... yes, IB is greatly against it, because it defeats the purpose of the intensive classes they offer.

[Sandwich]

julie, the IB isn't against it, I am arabic ab inition, but I studied in arabic for 4 years before I did my IB. but I can't go in for B because I haven't taken all the requirements and the studies the students have already taken.

I can read and write, but I don't know grammar, nor how to use arabic punctuation and structure a complete essay, so they put me in Ab. to get in the school must notice the need of help in the subject, and then after an exam is done. they decide where to put you. in Ab or B.

You can now see Desy's syllabus outline... You are actually not allowed to be taking arabic ab inicio... and yes, IB is against it. My friend faught for IB Spanish ab inicio, but they wouldn't let he cause she lived in Honduras for 3 years...

so... Breena... yes, IB is greatly against it, because it defeats the purpose of the intensive classes they offer.

That's the thing with languages though, unless your school contacts the IBO, the decision as to which bracket you should sit in is entirely at your school's discretion. Short of performing background checks on all students, the IBO have no clue and make no apparent effort to enforce their guidelines. How much attention a school pays to the guidelines and how it interprets them is pretty variable. It defeats the point, but it helps you (and the school's rep) if you get a better grade, so there's a significant percentage of misplaced language students throughout all the brackets, whether it's a fluent person taking B or somebody with a reasonable command of a language taking AB.

When you're NOT allowed to take Ab Initio may be written into the IB guidelines (although even then it's pretty vague...) but in reality it's just however your school decides to play it. I know we had some fluent Mandarin speakers doing Mandarin B. It sucks for people who genuinely are at that level, but it happens.

[I`m Potato]

I have been showing interest in taking French ab initio albeit that I have had some French learning experience in my secondary years. My Mandarin teacher told me that this was against the code of ethics so I was forbidden from taking it and would have to take French B instead. However, the contradicting thing is that I knew that B level would be an extreme challenge to me as I have been studying Mandarin ever since high school. When I browse through the French ab initio papers I could not understand even 50% of the texts, so let alone the B papers.

Anyway, I ended up taking Mandarin B HL. It's very easy because I am a Cantonese speaker. However, a greater dilemma arises because I am fluent in Cantonese, which is in fact a distinct Group 2 subject for B level as far as I know and Mandarin is not my mothertongue. I have only been exposed to Mandarin for 5-6 years and with self-studying I have just managed in recent years being comfortable speaking in Mandarin. Despite this, Mandarin and Cantonese are common in its written form which raises some concern towards my IB coordinator.

Apparently, there was a debate about whether I should take Chinese A2 or Mandarin B HL. My Mandarin teacher argued that Mandarin B would be more suitable for me because I've only been studying Mandarin for 5-6 years so technically, it complies with the B HL recommended criterion for selecting this level. Moreover, A2 level contains the IOC and literature study which I'd probably not be able to cope with ultimately and get a relatively low grade in the subject or possibly put my diploma in jeopardy if I get below 4.

[fan]

Ya a couple of students tried doing that in my class also however they did not succeed. i really don't find a reason to take it just so you can get a 7.. Dont you guys want to challenge yourself. Lol ok who am i kidding, IB is killing me!! I wouldn't not mind taking spanish ab incio.lol

[Mahuta ♥]

Not going to make this as long as the ones above, however:

Ab Initio:

The language ab initio courses are language learning courses for beginners, designed to

be followed over two years by students who have no previous experience of learning

the target language.

So basically like me taking Ab Initio Spanish when I have no previous experience of the language.

Your two friends are supposed to be in B, since they have some experience in the language.

I find it unfair to be honest, because having a bunch of people getting really high marks will just reduce the chances of the real Ab Initio students of getting 7 and 6. It's up to the school I think, my school didn't even allow us to take English B, since we've been speaking english for at least 7 years and the school is bilingual. Same goes for math studies, people getting A* in IGCSE Math Extended did Math studies in IB and got 7s which got the rest of the student screwed.

I think schools should control this, because it's really unfair for someone to take Ab Initio to learn the language and another taking it to garuntee a 7.

[yeaah]

Ohkaaay I went to look it up in the Group 2 Syllabus

Target Students: Which Course?

Ab initio SL is for a beginner who:

• has little or no previous experience of the language
  
• is taught outside the country or countries where the language is spoken

Language B SL is for a language learner who may not intend continuing study of the language beyond the Diploma Programme who:

• has 2 to 5 years experience of the target language
  
• is not taught other subjects in the target language
  
• is normally taught outside a country where the language is spoken
  
• is a beginner or near-beginner who lives in a country where the language is spoken

Language B HL is for a language learner who intends to study the language at this level for a future career, or to meet a Diploma Programme requirement, and who:

• has 4 to 5 years experience of the target language
  
• is not taught other subjects in the target language
  
• is normally taught outside a country where the language is spoken

(Language Ab Initio Guide 2002, page 6)

So by right your friends are not advised to take Ab Initio but...

You may want to talk about this to your IB Coordinator but make sure first that those 2 friends of yours are aware of this, ok.

I find it interesting that the IB suggests Ab Initios be taught outside the country where the language is spoken because I study IB in Malaysia and as far as I know all the schools that offer IB here have Ab Initio Malay.

A lot of Malaysian students are allowed to take it too because they have been taught in English speaking schools, even if their parents are fluent.

I guess like it has already been said it's not really feasible for the IB to investigate every individual student, they just rely on honesty.

There are a lot of things like that with IB, some students are going to have perfect IAs or Extended Essays, after receiving teacher help, stuff like that. Maybe you should just focus on your own study of the language and how much better and accomplished than those people you'll feel after mastering a second language...

[Afonso_Almeida]

On 1/16/2011 at 9:29 AM, Anya W said:

I have two friends that are taking Ab Initio. One has been taking Spanish for five years, and is taking Ab Initio, and one has been taking French for four years, and is taking Ab Initio. Is this right? I'm in french with one of them and its just difficult for me.

My school doesn't allow me to take Spanish ab initio because I am Portuguese (even though I never spoke spanish) and its kind of unfair

[ceg]

That is very unfair and not right. Maybe write an email to your teachers explaining your situation. Sorry

[Leti]

On 1/20/2011 at 3:30 PM, Mahuta ♥ said:

Not going to make this as long as the ones above, however:

Ab Initio:

The language ab initio courses are language learning courses for beginners, designed to

be followed over two years by students who have no previous experience of learning

the target language.

So basically like me taking Ab Initio Spanish when I have no previous experience of the language.

Your two friends are supposed to be in B, since they have some experience in the language.

I find it unfair to be honest, because having a bunch of people getting really high marks will just reduce the chances of the real Ab Initio students of getting 7 and 6. It's up to the school I think, my school didn't even allow us to take English B, since we've been speaking english for at least 7 years and the school is bilingual. Same goes for math studies, people getting A* in IGCSE Math Extended did Math studies in IB and got 7s which got the rest of the student screwed.

I think schools should control this, because it's really unfair for someone to take Ab Initio to learn the language and another taking it to garuntee a 7.

Not familiar enough with IB. Why does one student's 7 lower another student's chance of getting a 7? Can't all students in a class get 7?! If they are all fantastic at let's say Maths, do no mistakes why would they not all get 7's?!