Tell on a cheater or let it slide?

[JAKZ_93]

This should be a TOK presentation instead!!!!

[dessskris]

This should be a TOK presentation instead!!!!

that's a good idea! I'll talk to my TOK teacher and see what he says about it.

[genepeer]

Telling on someone who cheats is like shooting a person for playing Russian Roulette. Similarly, cheating because other people are cheating is like playing Russian Roulette because every one else is, lol.

[Sandwich]

I wouldn't tell. Some things are more important than scores.

I don't believe it's right, but you need to recognize that people have different moral standards. A serial killer will not identify himself as a criminal, and the cheater won't think what he's doing is wrong. So who are you to say that what he's doing is wrong? Let him do it, and he'll suffer the consequences later on.

I think the issue with exam cheating is that these individuals don't suffer any consequences (except for good ones, of course) unless they're caught. Also I dispute all moral relativism in this matter, it's not an individual decision because the rules are laid out on a giant piece of paper and we have to all abide by them whether we agree or not. You don't have to feel like you're doing wrong to know that cheating in an official IB exam is wrong. They read it out before every exam, after all!

This should be a TOK presentation instead!!!!

I actually don't think this would be a good TOK presentation, it has no knowledge issues in it.

I think it's very hypocritical to tell on someone on one occasion and not tell in another. If you're going to tell on someone, then it shouldn't matter whether or not it's an official exam. Your predicted grades aren't based on the official grades; did you know that they can be the difference between one person being picked over another? So why not tell on people in normal exams too? Telling on others is simply a matter of principles; principles shouldn't have compromises.

The thing with predicted grades though is that if you can't then meet that grade at the end, you're screwed so if you cheat to get a high predicted grade and then aren't actually capable of pulling such a grade out of the bag, it's your own stupidity and doesn't affect other people. You don't gain out of the situation, at the end of the day. There's no exam except for the final IB exams in which the result is ultimately significant so in my opinion people can do whatever they want for all other exams. Cheating in earlier ones is only hurting yourself in any case, because if you don't learn it as you go along you'll be royally screwed for the final thing.

Telling on others as a principle would, I agree, involve hypocrisy if you didn't practice it all the time. However the principle here isn't simply to inform on people whenever cheating occurs. I would say that the principle involves preventing other people gaining an unfair advantage in situations where the outcome is significant. If you told only for one significant exam and not for another, then that would be hypocrisy, but I don't think it's the telling itself as much as the level of outcome which determines whether you do or don't. No offence to anybody who does this, but an individual with a principle of telling on others even when it doesn't particularly matter is somebody I wouldn't want to know!

[genepeer]

The thing with predicted grades though is that if you can't then meet that grade at the end, you're screwed so if you cheat to get a high predicted grade and then aren't actually capable of pulling such a grade out of the bag, it's your own stupidity and doesn't affect other people. You don't gain out of the situation, at the end of the day. There's no exam except for the final IB exams in which the result is ultimately significant so in my opinion people can do whatever they want for all other exams. Cheating in earlier ones is only hurting yourself in any case, because if you don't learn it as you go along you'll be royally screwed for the final thing.

The way I see it, say you fail to achieve the final score and you're screwed, but this is already too late for the student who wasn't picked because of you. By now, s/he has already decided to look elsewhere and the University isn't saying, "Let's go back for the other kid we left." Cheating in the normal exams did in fact lead to a significant change in someone else's choices.

Now what if the cheater does finally learn, and doesn't cheat on his final exam. Probably get slightly less in the final, but still acceptable. Will that change the fact that it was still unfair for the other student?

I do feel that the gain from cheating is being greatly exaggerated here. It's not like they're getting 43 when they really should be getting in 32. They don't cheat in ALL subjects. The gain would be around 4 points, something you could totally get away with if you cheated through your whole life and chose not to in the final. By the final IB exams, the damage (if any) has been done and it's not helping anyone to tell on someone.

Edited July 30, 2011 by genepeer

[Access Denied]

In making this topic i thought that their would be a clear cut yes and no. turns out their is a lot of grey.

which makes me wonder what are we coming to, when people think its ok to cheat on something so significant, something that not only lowers your personal character as a cheater in any circumstance, but lowering your character not telling.

I wonder that the issue is not whether or not you would tell. But why are people cheating at all?

some say that then its ok for you to personally cheat, but if everyone cheats then their is no point to the exam.

And the exam that is meant to catapult us into adulthood, the foundation of our education,

is inherently a lie.

[dessskris]

I don't care in how many subjects one would cheat and how much score they're getting in the end, cheating is cheating. it's breaking THE rule. it's still unfair and it's still not allowed. if one cheats even if they're my best friend I'd still tell, because they're consciously doing what they know they aren't supposed to do; and I really really hate people who are like that. I'd never trust people who cheat, even if it was my best friend or my bf. if it was my sister, maybe I'd even beat her to death.

[Keel]

I don't care in how many subjects one would cheat and how much score they're getting in the end, cheating is cheating. it's breaking THE rule. it's still unfair and it's still not allowed. if one cheats even if they're my best friend I'd still tell, because they're consciously doing what they know they aren't supposed to do; and I really really hate people who are like that. I'd never trust people who cheat, even if it was my best friend or my bf. if it was my sister, maybe I'd even beat her to death.

1. Cheating is breaking "THE rule"

2. Theft is breaking "THE rule"

2. Murder is breaking "THE rule" ect.

"if one cheats...I'd still tell..."

What if you found out your father murdered his boss so he could get a promotion at work? Would you report him to the authorities? I presume what your mean by 'THE rule' is an absolute ethical code which divides clearly what is moral and what is not. So the principles involved are really the same as the cheating scenario.

While I admire some posters' claims that they would 'always tell' or that they would 'never tell' based on the reasoning that 'the principles are the same, thus the conclusion is the same in all scenarios', I really doubt that they act upon these 100% of the time. One must remember that emotion plays a big part in our decision making, thus people who say that they will 'always tell' or 'never tell' and actually do practice such principles are either extremely insensitive or they block out one of the most powerful ways of knowing. Reason is very useful; we almost feel superior to be able to rationalise things. But in the heat of the moment you will, literally, feel what is right or wrong. So do leave room for uncertainty, you might not be as principled as you think.

[Costello]

It's quite surprising to me how many people here would tell on the cheater. I would never consider doing so, simply because there's no reason to. It doesn't affect you, and it's not gonna help you if you tell on anyone. It's not like by telling on someone the grade boundaries will immediately be by 10% lower which will automatically result in you getting the exact grade you need for university. You can't stop cheating and it's not your job, and it won't make any difference. There will always be certain percentage of people who cheat, you just have to deal with it. It seems like most of you just feel the irrational need to take a revenge on the cheater for making less effort than you. Maybe you should stop thinking about others and care about your own life?

[dessskris]

I kinda wish we could give negs here.

@Keel as a daughter, I would definitely be in a difficult position. but it doesn't mean I'd let my dad cheat. if he had to, he MUST be in jail. if he was to murder his boss, perhaps I'd have the chance to convince him not to, but if it already happened, I'd talk to him and tell him he MUST confess. it's not like killling a mosquito and you could forget it. it's a big deal and he MUST be responsible of what he did, so he must be imprisoned still, especially because his reason to murder his boss didn't make sense at all.

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You can't stop cheating and it's not your job

hey, it's a BIG DEAL, you know?? it's not only about cheating. it's about justice!! and fairness. if I knew I could cheat and not get caught and get IB45 then I'd just skip school everyday and cheat in my IAs and final exams. if the majority of people put in the effort to work hard and study to achieve something, but some people instead try to cheat and succeed to achieve something too, then it's unfair!! it's really really unfair and like what I said, if I knew I could've done it I'd do it too! everybody could've cheated then! as I already said again: you know you're not allowed to cheat, but you still cheat --> is the stupidest and most idiotic thing in my opinion! dunno where their brain is. and it's a big exam! what's the point of getting a 7 if it's not your own work? you don't gain knowledge. it's not making you any smarter. and it's a sin.

if you know that somebody is cheating, you know that something isn't right here, you must tell the truth! it's very important, you know!

but maybe it's also affected by one's educational background and environment. no direct offense to any of you.

[London 2012 !]

I kinda wish we could give negs here.

@Keel as a daughter, I would definitely be in a difficult position. but it doesn't mean I'd let my dad cheat. if he had to, he MUST be in jail. if he was to murder his boss, perhaps I'd have the chance to convince him not to, but if it already happened, I'd talk to him and tell him he MUST confess. it's not like killling a mosquito and you could forget it. it's a big deal and he MUST be responsible of what he did, so he must be imprisoned still, especially because his reason to murder his boss didn't make sense at all.

---

You can't stop cheating and it's not your job

hey, it's a BIG DEAL, you know?? it's not only about cheating. it's about justice!! and fairness. if I knew I could cheat and not get caught and get IB45 then I'd just skip school everyday and cheat in my IAs and final exams. if the majority of people put in the effort to work hard and study to achieve something, but some people instead try to cheat and succeed to achieve something too, then it's unfair!! it's really really unfair and like what I said, if I knew I could've done it I'd do it too! everybody could've cheated then! as I already said again: you know you're not allowed to cheat, but you still cheat --> is the stupidest and most idiotic thing in my opinion! dunno where their brain is. and it's a big exam! what's the point of getting a 7 if it's not your own work? you don't gain knowledge. it's not making you any smarter. and it's a sin.

if you know that somebody is cheating, you know that something isn't right here, you must tell the truth! it's very important, you know!

but maybe it's also affected by one's educational background and environment. no direct offense to any of you.

One thing which I agree with here, is that you can't stop cheating. It's existed for ages, and nothing you do, regardless whether you report the person committing the 'crime', will ever change that. If it's in someone's nature to cheat, they'll go on cheating. Simple as.

I don't understand why there's so much anger being channeled here though. Sure, the person who cheats does wrong in cheating, and shouldn't cheat. I, for one may possibly report them to an invigilator, but at the end of the day we live in an unfair society. And...more often that not, people end up getting away with it.

Live with it.

Edited August 1, 2011 by London 2012 !

[dessskris]

but hey, who knows! if we don't start making a change, nothing is going to be changed! it starts with the mindset, which is difficult to change, but is worth the effort.

[London 2012 !]

but hey, who knows! if we don't start making a change, nothing is going to be changed! it starts with the mindset, which is difficult to change, but is worth the effort.

I strongly doubt anything WILL change.

Every generation has its group of 'cheaters'. Cheating techniques have 'evolved'... lets say, from our parents generation to now, an age where we have things like mobile phones to help us cheat.

And the honest truth is, that it is going to keep on evolving. Nothing we can do will change that.

Somewhere in the world right now, there is someone sitting an exam with a cheat sheet.

Or maybe it's now a mobile phone.....

Edited August 1, 2011 by London 2012 !

[Costello]

hey, it's a BIG DEAL, you know?? it's not only about cheating. it's about justice!! and fairness. if I knew I could cheat and not get caught and get IB45 then I'd just skip school everyday and cheat in my IAs and final exams. if the majority of people put in the effort to work hard and study to achieve something, but some people instead try to cheat and succeed to achieve something too, then it's unfair!! it's really really unfair and like what I said, if I knew I could've done it I'd do it too! everybody could've cheated then! as I already said again: you know you're not allowed to cheat, but you still cheat --> is the stupidest and most idiotic thing in my opinion! dunno where their brain is. and it's a big exam! what's the point of getting a 7 if it's not your own work? you don't gain knowledge. it's not making you any smarter. and it's a sin.

if you know that somebody is cheating, you know that something isn't right here, you must tell the truth! it's very important, you know!

but maybe it's also affected by one's educational background and environment. no direct offense to any of you.

Sorry but I fail to see your logic here, you claim that cheating is the stupidest and most idiotic thing and yet you say "if I knew I could've done it I'd do it too"? So basically you hate cheating because you weren't able to cheat too?

It's not anyone else's fault that you care about gaining knowledge or that you have moral standards.

[London 2012 !]

I don't care in how many subjects one would cheat and how much score they're getting in the end, cheating is cheating. it's breaking THE rule. it's still unfair and it's still not allowed. if one cheats even if they're my best friend I'd still tell, because they're consciously doing what they know they aren't supposed to do; and I really really hate people who are like that. I'd never trust people who cheat, even if it was my best friend or my bf. if it was my sister, maybe I'd even beat her to death.

You'd beat your sister to death?

Harsh.

[Cynthia]

It's not anyone else's fault that you care about gaining knowledge or that you have moral standards.

Similarly, other people's lack of moral standards should not affect the lives (or grades) of those who don't possess that character flaw.

[Daedalus]

It's not anyone else's fault that you care about gaining knowledge or that you have moral standards.

Similarly, other people's lack of moral standards should not affect the lives (or grades) of those who don't possess that character flaw.

It's not a zero sum game, though. If you tell on a cheater, you're not "balancing out" the act. One you're probably ruining your relationship with that person permanently, two you're preventing them from getting a diploma, possibly from getting into university, likely from getting the job they wanted.

There are always cheaters. Fact of life. People screw with the system. Rich people don't pay taxes, or pay Republicans to not have to pay taxes. But the collective gain of utility from busting one cheater doesn't outweigh the loss of utility experienced by that one person, and I for one would not have the guts to pull that trigger.

Maybe cheaters deserve to get caught. But it's game theory ... telling on your best friend or your boyfriend in this situation is just very bad social intelligence. By that logic nobody in the room should tell, and some degree of cheating should be allowed to continue, even if it at the cost of people who deserved it not doing as well.

And anyways, the real effect of cheating on such a system is very probably exaggerated. University offers are already out by the time of exams in most countries; if you are so close to your needed grades that the small prevalence of cheating (est. 5% of candidates uncaught?) causes you to miss the offer, you just didn't study enough. But you might still get in, or a remark could give you the points you need.

Let's face it. Of the people here, how many of you have failed to achieve something because of other people's unethical behavior? Morality is much more complex than hard and fast right/wrong decisions. It's pretty shocking how so many of you would tell. In my school, one person cheated, got caught, and didn't do exams. We all felt sorry for him. None of us would ever have ratted him out. I don't agree with his decision, but that's part of being social. You don't always have to agree with someone to like them, and you definitely don't have to screw them over when they make a mistake.

[Cynthia]

In any case I think the actual topic - telling on someone - is much more of a moral grey area than actually cheating on a test which is what the poster I quoted was referring to. I probably could've been clearer on what exactly I was talking about, but oh well.

It's pretty clear that for many in here this is primarily a matter of principle and, at least theoretically, social considerations don't play a role in their ethical decision making. Although this thinking is, I suppose, quite unrealistic, it's very easy for me to understand since the same rule can easily be applied to all immoral acts even if the punishment in this case is disproportionate to the crime. I guess the wider question is the level of utility loss (cheating on a test -> shoplifting -> etc) that is large enough to make the social consequences acceptable; I'd personally at least like to think that in Keel's hypothetical scenario I'd report my father to the police for murdering his employer (even more so when there are no mitigating circumstances).

[dessskris]

huh, i was never good at debating, hence I never really participated in any of the debates here but since you people are directing questions to me.....

You'd beat your sister to death?

Harsh.

she's doing what she's not supposed to do. she deserves a punishment. this statement applies in the case of cheating, hence one of the reasons why we should tell on a cheater.

[Keel]

I kinda wish we could give negs here.

@Keel as a daughter, I would definitely be in a difficult position. but it doesn't mean I'd let my dad cheat. if he had to, he MUST be in jail. if he was to murder his boss, perhaps I'd have the chance to convince him not to, but if it already happened, I'd talk to him and tell him he MUST confess. it's not like killling a mosquito and you could forget it. it's a big deal and he MUST be responsible of what he did, so he must be imprisoned still, especially because his reason to murder his boss didn't make sense at all.

By all means, request a reduction in my reputation if you think that post was so damaging!

You don't seem to get the similarities between the murder scenario and that of the cheating. It was assumed that you would understand that (a) like in an exam hall where students cannot communicate, you would be unable to communicate with your father, (b) like in the cheating scenario, you can only find out about malpractice only after the deed has been done, and (c.) you either tell or not. Maybe you would like to tell me now you still wish to report your father?

And in case you were able to come up with a rebuttal based on the notion of negligence and self protection (i.e. you had to report in order to protect yourself from being accused), in the exam situation it is unlikely that anyone would be caught not reporting malpractice.

Pray tell what a mosquito has to do with this? My post was an attempt to state that it is impossible to state a rule of thumb on whether one should tell or never tell as we are merely speculating what we will do in such a situation without considering our emotions. Your response ... was non-existent.

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she's doing what she's not supposed to do. she deserves a punishment. this statement applies in the case of cheating, hence one of the reasons why we should tell on a cheater.

....and one of the reasons why we should steralise women in China who have their second child.

....and one of the reasons why we should execute drug trafficers in Taiwan.

....and one of the reasons why we should cut of the hands of theives in ancient Japan.

....and one of the reasons why we should hang 'black' men who look at white women.

They all did something they're not supposed to do. Therefore, they deserve punishment.