chenry Posted September 27, 2011 Report Share Posted September 27, 2011 For example, war, it is fighting for ones country, but even if one is prepared to die for his country, that doesn't always mean he's prepared to kill for his country.But in this case, isn't it justified to murder him, seeing as he tacitly consented to be murdered? Reply Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panopticon Posted September 27, 2011 Report Share Posted September 27, 2011 Killing itself is intrinsically wrong, however, what are the guidelines to be set for a murder? Reply Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
URA BOAT Posted October 28, 2011 Report Share Posted October 28, 2011 then maybe your teacher was strongly religious? it depends on what kind of person you are, your perspectives.I personally support terrorists who aim to kill stupid corruptors even though they are usually the government. i mean if they corrupt then they're not a good leader. if they treat the country like that, they deserve a punishment, or they deserve to be murdered so to speak (though in this case I'm not particularly talking about capital punishment. it's just one possible example. don't get me wrong PLEASE).I also support it when somebody who doesn't deserve to live longer is murdered. like thieves, kidnappers, rapists, people who exploit nature or kids, any bad person really.in those cases I agree with murder. you reminded me of the concept of utilitarianism. aim for the greater good. should you not kill and make people's lives miserable, or should you kill and make people's lives better off?obviously the latter. murder isn't always bad.wow i never meet a person that is pro terrorists... make me wonder how what we hear and see changes our views... after sep.11 i can not imagine that someone can be supporting terroris...well unless they are a terrorist them self..lol Reply Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dessskris Posted October 28, 2011 Report Share Posted October 28, 2011 wow i never meet a person that is pro terrorists... make me wonder how what we hear and see changes our views... after sep.11 i can not imagine that someone can be supporting terroris...well unless they are a terrorist them self..lolisn't that what the internet is for? it connects people with loads of other people whom they never met before.what the hell so you're saying I'm a terrorist??? didn't you read my argument? I said I only supported terrorists who had a good purpose.. he's doing the right thing by eradicating corruptors or any bad leaders. yes he's doing it in the wrong way, but it wouldn't work otherwise. if it wasn't for him, the country would've collapsed with such a leader. don't you see my point here? watch your mouth (or probably fingers in this case). Reply Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
susan944 Posted October 28, 2011 Report Share Posted October 28, 2011 -first and foremost, your tok teacher needs to define 'bad'-second, its all about interpretation. murder can be justified, but does that really make it good? something being justified does not necessarily mean it is a good thing. and you would still need to define what you even mean by 'good'.-third, i would hope that your tok teacher would be more open minded. in a way, she is kind of committing a fallacy by thinking that way. its all about ethics and reason. history as well. but its a difficult question to answer because it will always depend on the knower and the situation. so, i wouldn't say that murder is always bad, but i wouldnt exactly call it good either, justified or not. 1 Reply Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CkyBlue Posted October 29, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 29, 2011 -first and foremost, your tok teacher needs to define 'bad'-second, its all about interpretation. murder can be justified, but does that really make it good? something being justified does not necessarily mean it is a good thing. and you would still need to define what you even mean by 'good'.-third, i would hope that your tok teacher would be more open minded. in a way, she is kind of committing a fallacy by thinking that way. its all about ethics and reason. history as well. but its a difficult question to answer because it will always depend on the knower and the situation. so, i wouldn't say that murder is always bad, but i wouldnt exactly call it good either, justified or not.To address the first two points, I'm getting everyone's thoughts on it, because the topic is based upon our own interpretation. What is good, bad and justified is all up to us. As for the third point, well, her thoughts were for us to interpret it was to generate discussion, regardless our anyone's opinion of my TOK teacher. The point of the thread was to get thoughts from everyone and engage in healthy discussion. Reply Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
URA BOAT Posted November 4, 2011 Report Share Posted November 4, 2011 wow i never meet a person that is pro terrorists... make me wonder how what we hear and see changes our views... after sep.11 i can not imagine that someone can be supporting terroris...well unless they are a terrorist them self..lolisn't that what the internet is for? it connects people with loads of other people whom they never met before.what the hell so you're saying I'm a terrorist??? didn't you read my argument? I said I only supported terrorists who had a good purpose.. he's doing the right thing by eradicating corruptors or any bad leaders. yes he's doing it in the wrong way, but it wouldn't work otherwise. if it wasn't for him, the country would've collapsed with such a leader. don't you see my point here? watch your mouth (or probably fingers in this case).i'm sorry if i offended you..i didn't mean to...i never said that you are a terrorist..i just said that that was my view before(at least that's what i meant)....i don't support what they are doing but i sure understand them and their frustration...ya you got the leader part right..hahawatch my mouth???what? Reply Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mort Posted November 4, 2011 Report Share Posted November 4, 2011 As this is one of the many topics that has no right answer and is different for every individual, I will only state my opinion. I believe that the life of a person is not for another person to take, making murder completely wrong for me, even if in war, but war itself is something that I believe is wrong as well. Unfortunately, all these events take place and laws must be legislated to keep these events under control. So if a person decides to murder another individual, then that individual should be capped as unsocial and should be kept from the society (life sentence in maximum security prisons). I also disagree with any form of death sentence. 1 Reply Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fatih313 Posted March 13, 2012 Report Share Posted March 13, 2012 Yes, definitely. If God can forgive one, why can't we? Well, unless if it is necessary to murder, than it's not a bad thing though. Murdering for self-protection is a good thing. Murdering a traitor for the sake of the protection of a country is a good thing also. And many other examples that can be proven that murdering is not a bad thing for certain circumstances. Still, ToK is subjective. Different people have different opinions. Reply Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Positron Posted March 13, 2012 Report Share Posted March 13, 2012 (edited) Murder is an unlawful killing, with malice aforethought. Because of this, murder is always wrong, no matter what. A killing which was done under such circumstances that it would be viewed rightful, wouldn't be a murder since it wouldn't be unlawful. The requirement of malice aforethought rules out all the "killing the killer to save others" etc. So, your TOK teacher is right, murder is always wrong. And this is not a matter of opinion. Edited March 13, 2012 by Positron Reply Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andyboi Posted March 14, 2012 Report Share Posted March 14, 2012 (edited) Well if there was a definite answer would this post even be a question anywho.... my opinion on this is that it does depend on the crime. Yes, in a way I do believe killing is wrong, I don't think people should decide whether someone lives or dies, however aren't the killers doing that anyways? It seems kind of strange to me to use that argument... Edited March 14, 2012 by Mrs.Stein 1 Reply Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Positron Posted March 14, 2012 Report Share Posted March 14, 2012 (edited) I think many are missing the point here. The title specifically states "murder" not "killing". Because murder is defined the way it is, I highly doubt that there could be any circumstances under which it wouldn't be wrong. If you disagree, try to come up with a situation where it wouldn't be wrong. Edited March 16, 2012 by Positron Reply Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jasmeena Posted April 9, 2012 Report Share Posted April 9, 2012 I'll keep it simple because you guys have already said everything. I think that every muder is a crime and should be treated as such. But I don't believe every murder is BAD. It is a crime, but it isn't bad. A murder of one man who killed 1000 of people isn't bad. It is a crime, it is unethical, but in my opinion, isn't bad. But, on the other hand... should we try to justify it??? NO! It's like in Crime and Punishment - Raskolnikov thought he was extraordinary and he thought that justifies his crime (not talking about his motives right now, that's another debate), but what if we all take upon us to decide who is extraordinary??? As he said: "There are ordinary and extraordinary people but sometimes they get mixed up because the ordinary ones want to become the extraordinary ones so bad that they actually do something only extraordinary human can do. And that is wrong. They'll always stay ordinary, no matter what they do. The extraordinary humans lead the world to the better future and everything is on them, the ordinary ones only keep the number up." - just wanted to state that. This topic is really... sensitive. 1 Reply Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wykked Wytch Posted April 11, 2012 Report Share Posted April 11, 2012 Before one can answer the question, "Is murder bad?" one must first know the answer to "What is 'bad?'" That question is closely linked to "Does 'bad' exist?"I don't shy away from the description of "amoralist." I do not believe that there is any logical basis for moral values or judgments. "Murder is bad" is just a judgment statement but it carries no more "weight", no more evidence, than something like "Punching babies for the lulz is a noble act." Reply Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hossein Ahmed Posted September 22, 2012 Report Share Posted September 22, 2012 "Murder" is always bad, killing isn't necessarily as bad and might even at some occasions be good. "Murder" is always bad, killing isn't necessarily as bad and might even at some occasions be good. Sorry didn't "elaborate" so I'm going to do that in one sentence; KILLING CAN STOP MURDER! Reply Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevens579 Posted September 23, 2012 Report Share Posted September 23, 2012 A lot of responses say that murder is depriving someone of life, but what's to say that we have a right to life or that death is bad? 1 Reply Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MariusIBDP Posted September 23, 2012 Report Share Posted September 23, 2012 OK, so my TOK teacher seems to think that murder is bad. In any case.I was a bit confused about her thoughts on her take on murder. Apparently, she thinks "murder is bad" is an eternal justified truth.There are many justifications for murder, of course. The thing I do not understand is that, if murder is justified, doesn't that make it acceptable, (meaning NOT BAD) and in some cases even good? My TOK teacher thinks it is always bad, even if you justify it. I think otherwise.We talked about scenarios going from self-defense to varieties of religions. So, is murder always bad? I'd like to hear some opinions! Please and thanks Your TOK teacher seems to be a type of person, that TOK course was designed for - ignorant, that do not think critically. This is why:To be more clearer, I'd like to rephrase 'murder is bad' with 'deliberate illegal killing is ethically wrong'.If killing one person illegally is wrong, that means that killing two people is even worse, right (ceteris paribus)? If you disagree, you're basically saying that there is no difference between a murder and a genocide, no difference whether you kill 10 people or everybody on this planet. SO, I'll assume you agree Now consider this example: There is a religious-fanatic terrorist, which is convinced that his God(s) want him to destroy a city of 10 million people. He's just about to push a button that will detonate a bomb, that will completely destroy the city. You're the only one around him, pointing a gun at his head. There's no way to talk him out of it, he's not afraid to die and you're the only one who can stop him. If he pushes the button, you both will blow up together with the city. Don't you think you're not only justified, but morally obliged to kill him, since he's about to commit something far worse than you're and your own life is in danger? Reply Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MariusIBDP Posted September 23, 2012 Report Share Posted September 23, 2012 OK, so my TOK teacher seems to think that murder is bad. In any case.I was a bit confused about her thoughts on her take on murder. Apparently, she thinks "murder is bad" is an eternal justified truth.There are many justifications for murder, of course. The thing I do not understand is that, if murder is justified, doesn't that make it acceptable, (meaning NOT BAD) and in some cases even good? My TOK teacher thinks it is always bad, even if you justify it. I think otherwise.We talked about scenarios going from self-defense to varieties of religions. So, is murder always bad? I'd like to hear some opinions! Please and thanks Your TOK teacher seems to be a type of person, that TOK course was designed for - ignorant, that do not think critically. This is why:To be more clearer, I'd like to rephrase 'murder is bad' with 'deliberate illegal killing is ethically wrong'.If killing one person illegally is wrong, that means that killing two people is even worse, right (ceteris paribus)? If you disagree, you're basically saying that there is no difference between a murder and a genocide, no difference whether you kill 10 people or everybody on this planet. SO, I'll assume you agree Now consider this example: There is a religious-fanatic terrorist, which is convinced that his God(s) want him to destroy a city of 10 million people. He's just about to push a button that will detonate a bomb, that will completely destroy the city. You're the only one around him, pointing a gun at his head. There's no way to talk him out of it, he's not afraid to die and you're the only one who can stop him. If he pushes the button, you both will blow up together with the city. Don't you think you're not only justified, but morally obliged to kill him, since he's about to commit something far worse than you're and your own life is in danger? Reply Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
detached Posted September 23, 2012 Report Share Posted September 23, 2012 Disregarding any laws, rights, and ethics...If the murder satisfies me or makes me happy, then it's good. If it makes me angry, sad, or uncomfortable in other ways then it's bad. But I think that a decent amount of the time, I'd be ambivalent toward whatever instance of murder comes my way.But this all for myself. My opinion. It would probably be disastrous for me if everyone else started thinking the same. Reply Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Award Winning Boss Posted September 23, 2012 Report Share Posted September 23, 2012 Disregarding any laws, rights, and ethics...If the murder satisfies me or makes me happy, then it's good. If it makes me angry, sad, or uncomfortable in other ways then it's bad. But I think that a decent amount of the time, I'd be ambivalent toward whatever instance of murder comes my way.But this all for myself. My opinion. It would probably be disastrous for me if everyone else started thinking the same.What use is ethics for others (or even your own) well being, if it's completely self interested? Reply Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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