Why don't you believe in God?

[citizenoftheuniverse]

Another really good Youtuber for you to watch is MrRepzion. He has made several Youtube videos about his faith, but a few months ago he finally became an atheist. He is a really really interesting person and I personally really like him, though at first I have to admit I really didn't . You can probably relate to him, he was really sincere and strong in his belief, and in the majority of his videos he still is religious. He works hard on his videos and he has made many videos concerning religion and other things. He might be easier to stomach than "Why I am no longer a Christian" which is insanely long and thus would require a lot of concentration even though it is very interesting and sincere. MrRepzion has a lot more entertainment value, and his old videos are good to watch for atheists as well since they provide insight into the religious perspective. If you want a more comprehensive as well as personal take on religion, "Why I am no longer a Christian" is better. You might notice that both of these examples are deconversions. These people understand the religious debate better since they have gone through it themselves, and thus can provide more insightful and balanced commentary on the issue, and can better explain how atheism is different from Christianity.

[CkyBlue]

To loosely quote a recent status update, in essence, atheists don't look down upon religious people. They do not oppose religion; people can believe whatever they want. However, they oppose that people use their own religion, or rather, their own beliefs to impose laws, or to infringe upon human rights. Believing in God does not mean you are universally correct.

I'm not religious because I don't find happiness, hope, or enlightenment through believing in something that seems unreal to me. And I fail to see how other people do. If I'm ever called ignorant, I'd retort that they're delusional For me, there are other, better ways of finding happiness. My own ways. Just as I create my own rules to govern myself, others do the same. However, to dictate my rules on a group of people who don't share the same beliefs as I do is wrong. At the end of the day, life should go on normally independent of my decision to be religious. We shouldn't be forced to believe anything.

I'm leaning towards atheism, but I sorta, kinda believe in a non-religious higher power since there isn't a clear explanation of the origin of the universe. But in a religious sense, I guess I'm atheist.

[Luka Petrovic]

I've realized people seem to mix up believing in a god and following dogmas or traditions set up by certain religions.

These are two completely different things. Søren Kierkegaard argued that organized religion in fact got in the way of having a legitimate relationship with god.

When we look at our world, many things around us first existed in someones mind. the designs for clothes, computers cars and machines that produce them were first an abstract idea in someone's mind. From looking at nature, it is obvious there is some sort of purposeful design. Now the question is, who is responsible for the purposeful creation of designs in nature?

Enjoy having your minds blown!

Edited November 4, 2012 by Luka Petrovic

[krystinawashereXD]

hmm. Well, the reason I don't believe in a god is because, if god created people, who created him? I don't believe that he just popped up out of nowhere. **I don't want to offend anyone btw ** I just don't believe in a god.

Edited November 4, 2012 by krystinawashereXD

[Luka Petrovic]

That is true, everything must originate from something. However I don't think we give a "god" Justice as we often personify him, especially in Judeo-Christian philosophies. I think this would be to simplify the idea for the masses. But in reality the idea of a bearded man in the sky isn't necessary or plausible. Think of it more as a force... Not like in Star Wars! But you could use that as a basis.

[krystinawashereXD]

wow, you make me sound so dumb... haha.

[aldld]

From looking at nature, it is obvious there is some sort of purposeful design.

No it's not. That is a pretty big leap in reasoning, which is why I don't believe in any god or gods. Many instances of apparent "design" are explained by science, and even in cases which we do not fully understand scientifically, a lack of knowledge does not imply that "God did it".

[krystinawashereXD]

well, I think that the lack of knowledge that some people have regarding those kind of things does imply that "God did it"... They have no other basis to go off of, when they see something in nature's "purposeful design"... So they just say that "God made that"... For example, an American saying goes "God made dirt, so dirt don't hurt"... We obviously know that dirt doesn't just come out of nowhere, and we have gained that knowledge...So, for the people without that knowledge, they think that God just made it. Does that make sense?

[aldld]

That is true, everything must originate from something. However I don't think we give a "god" Justice as we often personify him, especially in Judeo-Christian philosophies. I think this would be to simplify the idea for the masses. But in reality the idea of a bearded man in the sky isn't necessary or plausible. Think of it more as a force... Not like in Star Wars! But you could use that as a basis.

Sure, you can abstract things so far away that you end up talking about god being some sort of vague "force". At that point, what is this "force". The fundamental laws of physics, or perhaps other metaphysical ideas? If the question is reduced to this point, it becomes pointless to debate about whether or not god exists.

[aldld]

well, I think that the lack of knowledge that some people have regarding those kind of things does imply that "God did it"... They have no other basis to go off of, when they see something in nature's "purposeful design"... So they just say that "God made that"... For example, an American saying goes "God made dirt, so dirt don't hurt"... We obviously know that dirt doesn't just come out of nowhere, and we have gained that knowledge...So, for the people without that knowledge, they think that God just made it. Does that make sense?

When using "implies" as a logical connective (as I was), a lack of knowledge definitely does not imply anything, since truth is independent of knowledge. If people have no other basis to go on, then they are in no position to make any deduction at all. Sure, people can speculate about the nature of natural phenomena, but if they have no evidence or justification whatsoever, any decision they can make is purely irrational.

[krystinawashereXD]

alright, I give up.... lol

[Award Winning Boss]

alright, I give up.... lol

No need to give up. It's always good learning about the other perspective. It just means you'll make more informed arguments about your own.

[krystinawashereXD]

haha, no, I meant I give up because I don't understand what aldld is saying, lol.

He's too smart

[Luka Petrovic]

well, I think that the lack of knowledge that some people have regarding those kind of things does imply that "God did it"... They have no other basis to go off of, when they see something in nature's "purposeful design"... So they just say that "God made that"... For example, an American saying goes "God made dirt, so dirt don't hurt"... We obviously know that dirt doesn't just come out of nowhere, and we have gained that knowledge...So, for the people without that knowledge, they think that God just made it. Does that make sense?

When using "implies" as a logical connective (as I was), a lack of knowledge definitely does not imply anything, since truth is independent of knowledge. If people have no other basis to go on, then they are in no position to make any deduction at all. Sure, people can speculate about the nature of natural phenomena, but if they have no evidence or justification whatsoever, any decision they can make is purely irrational.

But how can we measure something intangible with empiricism and scientific method? The enlightenment made great leaps in science and what we consider legitimate proof /knowledge, but it also made us afraid of anything that cannot be proven with numbers. Greek philosophers did make mistakes with their non-mathematical theories, but they also made many break throughs. Ultimately we cannot prove the existence of a god, nor the fact that he does not exist.

[krystinawashereXD]

well, I think that the lack of knowledge that some people have regarding those kind of things does imply that "God did it"... They have no other basis to go off of, when they see something in nature's "purposeful design"... So they just say that "God made that"... For example, an American saying goes "God made dirt, so dirt don't hurt"... We obviously know that dirt doesn't just come out of nowhere, and we have gained that knowledge...So, for the people without that knowledge, they think that God just made it. Does that make sense?

When using "implies" as a logical connective (as I was), a lack of knowledge definitely does not imply anything, since truth is independent of knowledge. If people have no other basis to go on, then they are in no position to make any deduction at all. Sure, people can speculate about the nature of natural phenomena, but if they have no evidence or justification whatsoever, any decision they can make is purely irrational.

But how can we measure something intangible with empiricism and scientific method? The enlightenment made great leaps in science and what we consider legitimate proof /knowledge, but it also made us afraid of anything that cannot be proven with numbers. Greek philosophers did make mistakes with their non-mathematical theories, but they also made many break throughs. Ultimately we cannot prove the existence of a god, nor the fact that he does not exist.

OMG YES!! FINALLY!! Luka said it!! lol

we can't prove the existence of a God!

( or that he doesn't exist, lol)

[dukeinvikaca]

I just spent the last 30 minutes reading an old thread on God and the correlation between intelligence and religious beliefs. Personally, I am very well educated and top of my class and yet I still have strong religious beliefs. But this is besides the point, I only use myself as an example. This question is generally directed to anyone who is atheist, agnostic, or just is completely unsure! (But of course anyone feel free to answer, I'd also love to hear the religious side of the argument!)

So, in essence of saving time I'll be direct; If anyone out there doesn't believe in God, why? I honestly just want to hear your opinion and what lead you to your beliefs. Was it lack of religious background, your education, a personal revelation? What reasons do you have for not believing in God and will your beliefs ever change? Do you look down upon people who do believe in God/how do you treat them and their beliefs? And please anyone who is religious feel free to comment the inverse! I'd like to see a very unbiased debate on the issue because I am genuinely curious and interested in your answers. Thank you all!

Before I start answering your questions, I would like to put a disclaimer to everything I am about to say - these are my own, personal beliefs and in no way are meant to harm or offend anyone. Firstly, the topic is very delicate and I hoping that it will develop into a healthy, engaging debate.

If anyone out there doesn't believe in God, why? - I don't think the question is nicely phrased - firstly, you focused on an Abrahamic God, while totally neglecting other deities - someone may believe in a pagan god and not in Abrahamic God; and secondly, I really didn't like the way the question sounded - it was almost condescending. There were many other ways in which you could have expressed the same point, but I personally don't feel offended - other people might though . Personally, I am a strong atheist, evolutionist and a passionate scientist; so I think my answer might interest you. I do not believe in any deity, any form of god (pagan gods and/or Abrahamic God included), because I do not have any reason to do so: historic evidence about organized religions and religious texts is of paramount importance and isn't really flattering towards the idea of a god - et contra, as you might know, every religious text has been modified at one point in history; furthermore, I do not have any empirical evidence that a deity created the Universe, and there is even less scientific evidence that a deity created life on Earth. Instead, I believe that evolution, geology and astronomy; as well as physics are empirical and quality explanations to the question that humans have been pondering since they (or their ancestors) developed cognitive functions which enabled them to ask such questions.

Was it lack of religious background, your education, a personal revelation? - I grew up in a family which is partially theist and predominantly atheist; and in a country which is predominantly theist (albeit very few individuals actually practice their religions, more people are merely traditionalists). I have had excellent religious education, and am very familiar when it comes to religion and religious texts - I have studied the Bible, Qur'an and Torah; which further cemented my views that a deity does not exist. Nevertheless, I must be honest and say that religious background does have a significant impact on one's own beliefs. Also, you raised, what appears to be, a correlation between level of education and lack of religious beliefs - first, there is no such thing as the equality sign between education and intelligence, and many fail to see that; secondly, I believe that quality education brings open-mindedness and the ability to discuss, but unfortunately, most of the formal education is repetitive and aims at temporary knowledge and very little actual knowledge after a decade or so. With that in mind, I firmly believe that education and lack of religious beliefs are not correlated completely - however, it is true that incidence of atheists is higher among highly educated individuals. On the other hand, I believe that there is a correlation between open-mindedness and lack of religious beliefs - or at least, that is my experience and I must say that I do not have any empirical evidence to back up my thesis, hence it can be discarded as an invalid argument.

What reasons do you have for not believing in God and will your beliefs ever change? - Again, the question is inappropriate and condescending - or at least, I perceive it as such. It is rather rude to ask someone if his/her beliefs will change from atheism to theism - actually, it seems almost is if you asked:" Will you heathens ever accept truth?". For sake of a quality debate, do not ask such questions, or at least do not phrase them as such. I am trying, as much as possible not to insult anyone and I think you should be also very careful not to offend anyone else's feelings. I outlined my reasons earlier, but will discuss them at length now - I do not believe that there is a deity because the hypothesis is not valid in my eyes. The Big Bang theory explains the genesis of the Universe well, albeit for the few details, which I am sure will be explained by science anytime soon. The origin and development of life on Earth is beautifully explained by evolution, supported by paramount evidence, and I do not think that a deity had any role in that - or better put, the evidence of evolution suggest that. Mathematics and everything else I learnt (at school and outside of it), provide a sufficient explanation for life and the everyday events - merely chance and probability, which determine our lives. No, my beliefs will not change: I do not see a way that I could believe in a deity of any kind.

Do you look down upon people who do believe in God/how do you treat them and their beliefs? - This is a good question. Many try to portray atheists as people who enjoy to look down upon theists and who actually enjoy offending other people. Growing up in an environment where majority of the population are theists, I do not look down upon theists - I see no reason for that, unless I am given reason by them personally. To clarify myself, I will look down on theists who are unable to accept that atheists accept and who do not respect me and/or my beliefs. I let other people have their beliefs and I expect pretty much the same - I do not tolerate the question:"When will you start believing?" and when someone asks that I react. Other people's beliefs do not concern me, as long as they do not affect me. Unfortunately, I live in a country where most people think that they know something about their religion (although that they have no idea) and know nothing about science, and think it is okay to go and insult atheists.

Generally speaking, from my experience, atheists do not look down upon theists - there are few who do, but these people speak for themselves, not everyone. Also, generalizing is a bad idea: I cannot know every atheist, ergo I cannot speak for every atheist.

That is true, everything must originate from something. However I don't think we give a "god" Justice as we often personify him, especially in Judeo-Christian philosophies. I think this would be to simplify the idea for the masses. But in reality the idea of a bearded man in the sky isn't necessary or plausible. Think of it more as a force... Not like in Star Wars! But you could use that as a basis.

Sure, you can abstract things so far away that you end up talking about god being some sort of vague "force". At that point, what is this "force". The fundamental laws of physics, or perhaps other metaphysical ideas? If the question is reduced to this point, it becomes pointless to debate about whether or not god exists.

P.S. As you might know, that is called reducto ad absurdum.

Now if you allow, I would like to ask a few questions, purely for the sake of the debate. In my experience, throughout my life, I had to justify my beliefs to theists - present them, elaborate them and then be cast away, usually with words:"Let god be the judge" or something between the lines: so it puzzles me, why do atheists always justify their beliefs? With that in mind, I will ask you to justify your beliefs, in the same way that I justified mine - why do you believe in a deity, what makes you believe, do you believe your beliefs are sound and will you ever change your beliefs (although I hate the question, since I answered I would like to see the answers from theists). Secondly, I would like to know experiences of other people - have you had conflicts over your religious beliefs and if yes, what was the reason? What is the cause of the friction between atheists and theists - lack of open-mindedness, lack of education, lack of manners? Have you encountered the idea that atheism is bad and immoral? Do you perhaps think that it is easier not to understand differences, because understanding would mean facing your fears of the unknown?

Thanks for reading and I am looking forward to some sane answers!

Edited November 4, 2012 by dukeinvikaca

[aldld]

well, I think that the lack of knowledge that some people have regarding those kind of things does imply that "God did it"... They have no other basis to go off of, when they see something in nature's "purposeful design"... So they just say that "God made that"... For example, an American saying goes "God made dirt, so dirt don't hurt"... We obviously know that dirt doesn't just come out of nowhere, and we have gained that knowledge...So, for the people without that knowledge, they think that God just made it. Does that make sense?

When using "implies" as a logical connective (as I was), a lack of knowledge definitely does not imply anything, since truth is independent of knowledge. If people have no other basis to go on, then they are in no position to make any deduction at all. Sure, people can speculate about the nature of natural phenomena, but if they have no evidence or justification whatsoever, any decision they can make is purely irrational.

But how can we measure something intangible with empiricism and scientific method? The enlightenment made great leaps in science and what we consider legitimate proof /knowledge, but it also made us afraid of anything that cannot be proven with numbers. Greek philosophers did make mistakes with their non-mathematical theories, but they also made many break throughs. Ultimately we cannot prove the existence of a god, nor the fact that he does not exist.

Exactly. I'm not arguing that god definitely does not exist, it is one of those things about which we cannot be completely certain. My point is that there is no rational reason to believe in any form of gods and that "appearance of design" does not necessarily imply actual design.

However, I might add, that it is indeed possible to disprove specific interpretations of "god". There are the well-known omnipotence and omniscience paradoxes which show that particular interpretations or descriptions of god must lead to contradictions.

[Luka Petrovic]

Vidim da ste iz BiH! Mjesto poznato za probleme sa religijom...

In Canada i find it difficult for people to divided themselves based on religious beliefs, in intellectual circles at least.

How does this compare to BiH? ( Not to call you out dukeinvikaca, its just that I think that could be a valuable part of the debate)

Edited November 4, 2012 by Luka Petrovic

[dukeinvikaca]

Vidim da ste iz BiH! Mjesto poznato za probleme sa religijom...

In Canada i find it difficult for people to divided themselves based on religious beliefs, in intellectual circles at least.

How does this compare to BiH?

Nema potrebe da me persiraš, nisam toliko star

Yes, Bosnia and Herzegovina is infamous for religion issues - there was a war, which started 20 years ago and which was fueled by nationalism and religious indoctrination. The country is still deeply divided and the wounds are still fresh; so that is why my approach was so cautious.

In Bosnia, multiculturalism and 4 religions have been a reality for 5 centuries, but lately, I get the impression that (often purposeful) misinterpretations of religion, and nationalistic zeal which often derives from misinterpretation of religion are dividing and destroying our society completely. It is shocking - there are examples of kids from Muslim and Catholic families going to the same school and being segregated (kids of Muslim upbringing take Bosnian, kids of Catholic upbringing take Croatian; they do not hang out together (actually are forbidden to hang out with the members of the "wrong religion"), etc.), but that is a very complex issue - it would take an entire threat to explain the origin, genesis, history of the development of the situation and the current state of things.

Edited November 4, 2012 by dukeinvikaca

[Luka Petrovic]

Agreed on the entire thread thing Rather deep. I do value religions as something of a cultural beauty, however when it rears its ugly head and gets involved in politics or education I draw the line... That being said, its not an easy line to draw!