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Feminism in first world countries - legitimate movement or incessant whining?


yii yann

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I was having a discussion with the boyfriend today, regarding feminism.

He told me that while feminism is absolutely crucial in developing countries, it has simply become an "excuse for everything" for women in developed countries. He says that as a group, women have lost sight of the ideals of feminism and instead started classifying every single problem we face under the label of sexism.

Unfortunately, for every argument I brought up, he provided a valid counter argument. It wasn't some "anti-feminist" arguments, but well thought-out rebuttals.

The more he explained his point of view, the more I was inclined to agree with him. A fair proportion of women do seem to subscribe to the logic of (as my boyfriend calls it) "convenient feminism": Being a feminist and demanding equal rights when it's beneficial, but reverting to traditional gender roles when being equal is inconvenient.

He also pointed out some very obvious double standards that were biased against men. For example,

  1. The multitude of ads that portray fat women as "simply curvy" or "more to love", positive slogans ("Real men love a curvy woman"). etc. Whereas fat men are almost invariably portrayed as balding, sweating, disgusting perverts.
  2. A feminist loudly claiming that other people are being sexist is "strong willed", but a male questioning the feminist is automatically a "woman hater", an "anti feminist" or a "gender nazi".
  3. When a man claims a woman is hot, has a nice ass, etc, he is a chauvinistic pig who treats women as property, yet when women go crazy over hot celebrities its totally okay.
  4. Women are allowed to complain about perceived injustices, but men are supposed to keep quiet and "let the women complain".

This went on and on. I couldn't say much because all of what he said was true to a certain extent.

Then he politely let me know that every person has problems because of a certain factor: racism, sexism, weight, height, looks, wealth, education, intelligence, etc. Just because a person's problem possibly stems from sexism doesn't automatically make it more important and/or worse than the person who's suffering an injustice due to some other factor.

I wanted to hit him but dammit he wasn't wrong.

The worst part is that I'd been guilty of a lot of the things he'd said. In fact, when he first started explaining his view, without even pausing I immediately thought to myself a less vulgar version of "anti-feminist bastard".

I am utterly confused right now as to what to think about this, so I figured its not a bad idea to open this discussion here.

I will show any replies here to my boyfriend, and if he wishes to reply, he will use my account. Of course, replies by him will have a clear note at the top stating so.

So, what do you guys think of what he's said? I realize there's no clear question, but hopefully a few will arise through the course of the discussion.

I would appreciate if everyone replied politely without flaming anyone (which just destroys the point of a discussion), and of course good spelling and grammar just makes everyone happy :D

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I disagree with him. Feminism is still needed and just because the term has been hijacked by a minority who are seem to be very extreme, it doesn't mean the movement itself is worthless.

There are a few more things I can say about this but I'll respond to the double standards he's put forward.

The multitude of ads that portray fat women as "simply curvy" or "more to love", positive slogans ("Real men love a curvy woman"). etc. Whereas fat men are almost invariably portrayed as balding, sweating, disgusting perverts.

'Real men love curvy woman' hasn't been on a single ad I've ever seen. Most of these adverts are mainly there to make sure that people don't hate themselves for their bodily image. Such hatred results in self harm and things like that. It's a confidence boost. Not a stand to insult men. Plus, I doubt most people are on board with people being overweight anyway.

Just because a man is insulted, it doesn't mean feminism is unnecessary

A feminist loudly claiming that other people are being sexist is "strong willed", but a male questioning the feminist is automatically a "woman hater", an "anti feminist" or a "gender nazi".

I'd really like to know where this is coming from because again it's taking the minority and claiming everyone doing it. Hell, did you call him a 'woman hater' for the views he's just put forward? I doubt it. A lot of feminists (like yourself!) wouldn't accept sexism from women or men.

When a man claims a woman is hot, has a nice ass, etc, he is a chauvinistic pig who treats women as property, yet when women go crazy over hot celebrities its totally okay.

Sexual harassment is real and there's reason why it's spoken about so much. How often do you really hear men being called pigs for liking a celebrity versus being called a pig when they cat call a woman down the street?

Women are allowed to complain about perceived injustices, but men are supposed to keep quiet and "let the women complain".

Why is this even a reason to get rid of feminism as a whole? I disagree with it too.

A lot of the criticisms he has of the feminist movement seem to be of the tumblr-esque "I need a reason to be oppressed" type. Double standards exist but that isn't a reason to stop going for equality. To be honest, your own reaction to his criticisms are a counter example to how feminism in the first world isn't just a reason to complain. Even if he doesn't see it, it doesn't mean it doesn't exist for other people. I wouldn't say that racial equality is a pointless movement just because some black people are racist towards white people or that I'm at a good university so there's no discrimination at all.

Of course, if you want equality, be equal all the time. It's important not to do it when it's convenient for you. However, I don't think that's the voice of feminists you'd want to take seriously.

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Well, though what he says is true, there is also a HUGE movement, especially on the internet, to make fun of feminists and point out all the "faults in their logic". So the view many people have of feminism is not representative of their goals, it's the view of the caricature of feminism as portrayed by sort of "anti-feminists". The illogical, crazy statements by "feminists" are highlighted, while actual logical arguments and views are not.

Just like with other movements, the main movement is often followed by some backlash counter-movement, and despite popular conception, I feel like we are culturally experiencing the counter-movement against feminism right now.

The goal of feminism is not to make women superior to men, it is to make them equal. The primary goal is equality, and thus I have heard it said by a feminist that it would be better termed "humanism", which would better promote the idea of equality, and not the promotion of a specific gender which people make it out to be.

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I have a mixed view on this. A lot of feminist stuff is a load of rubbish nowadays, although I have some sympathy for the 'edge' of the rubbish spectrum. Stuff like 'no more Page 3' and women being portrayed as the sum total of their looks and bodies sort-of goes both ways. Some people take it way too far, but a certain part of it is totally valid. The appearance of women is much more heavily criticised. I mean, I know I do it - it's so ingrained. I wouldn't really comment on what a male politician was wearing or use it to shape my opinion of them (unless they were wearing a sack or no clothes or something...), but the clothing of Theresa May seems like a big deal to me. The appearance of women is often used to invalidate them or make judgements about them (including by other women) in a way which doesn't happen to men. Similarly clothing validates people. If Christine Lagarde didn't dress so sharply and instead looked a bit more like Mary Beard, would she be where she is now?

There's no denying key facts. Like the 'glass ceiling', which does exist (although less and less and it depends on the sphere - business is much worse than medicine which is very equal, for instance). Also the fact that women are paid less than their male counterparts doing the same job on average.

I think feminism is 'mis-used' to a certain extent and people get the feeling that it applies to only petty things. Which to be fair is what most loudly self-proclaiming feminists say, and I find them pretty irritating. On the other hand, until there IS equality in society and on paper - especially on the balance sheets and in employment - I think people need to keep pushing for it to be corrected.

Stuff like "oh fat curvy women are beautiful" as your boyfriend said is actually a reaction to the fact that fat men are not (traditionally) persecuted as much as women. You see a lot of obese men in top jobs, but few obese women. A fat man is considered indulgent and characterful, whereas a fat woman is weak-willed and lacks self-control. Personally I think that all celebrating fat as beautiful is sort-of missing the point that it's pretty bad for you, but on the other hand, if it corrects the divide somewhat then it does have some sort of purpose.

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I disagree with him. Feminism is still needed and just because the term has been hijacked by a minority who are seem to be very extreme, it doesn't mean the movement itself is worthless.

There are a few more things I can say about this but I'll respond to the double standards he's put forward.

The multitude of ads that portray fat women as "simply curvy" or "more to love", positive slogans ("Real men love a curvy woman"). etc. Whereas fat men are almost invariably portrayed as balding, sweating, disgusting perverts.

'Real men love curvy woman' hasn't been on a single ad I've ever seen. Most of these adverts are mainly there to make sure that people don't hate themselves for their bodily image. Such hatred results in self harm and things like that. It's a confidence boost. Not a stand to insult men. Plus, I doubt most people are on board with people being overweight anyway.

Just because a man is insulted, it doesn't mean feminism is unnecessary

A feminist loudly claiming that other people are being sexist is "strong willed", but a male questioning the feminist is automatically a "woman hater", an "anti feminist" or a "gender nazi".

I'd really like to know where this is coming from because again it's taking the minority and claiming everyone doing it. Hell, did you call him a 'woman hater' for the views he's just put forward? I doubt it. A lot of feminists (like yourself!) wouldn't accept sexism from women or men.

When a man claims a woman is hot, has a nice ass, etc, he is a chauvinistic pig who treats women as property, yet when women go crazy over hot celebrities its totally okay.

Sexual harassment is real and there's reason why it's spoken about so much. How often do you really hear men being called pigs for liking a celebrity versus being called a pig when they cat call a woman down the street?

Women are allowed to complain about perceived injustices, but men are supposed to keep quiet and "let the women complain".

Why is this even a reason to get rid of feminism as a whole? I disagree with it too.

A lot of the criticisms he has of the feminist movement seem to be of the tumblr-esque "I need a reason to be oppressed" type. Double standards exist but that isn't a reason to stop going for equality. To be honest, your own reaction to his criticisms are a counter example to how feminism in the first world isn't just a reason to complain. Even if he doesn't see it, it doesn't mean it doesn't exist for other people. I wouldn't say that racial equality is a pointless movement just because some black people are racist towards white people or that I'm at a good university so there's no discrimination at all.

Of course, if you want equality, be equal all the time. It's important not to do it when it's convenient for you. However, I don't think that's the voice of feminists you'd want to take seriously.

Hello there, this is YY's boyfriend.

I think what I'm saying hasn't come across properly. I didn't mean there is no need for feminism. In fact, I believe it is absolutely necessary. What I was trying to put across was that the term "feminism" has become an easy excuse for women in first world countries to use when they are not content with something.

It is severely damaging to the agenda of activists like myself, who are pushing for equality in important things, like wage, job security, parental responsibility, when we've got some women blaming men left and right for every little problem they have. The double standards I used as examples weren't used for their legitimacy. They definitely aren't legitimate complaints, as you've rightly pointed out. They were used to highlight the type of ridiculous complaints some women make: partly true, but devaluing the agenda. I put it from a male point of view to show YY what a similar female complaint looks like from a guy's eyes - somewhat trivial.

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Hello there, this is YY's boyfriend.

I think what I'm saying hasn't come across properly. I didn't mean there is no need for feminism. In fact, I believe it is absolutely necessary. What I was trying to put across was that the term "feminism" has become an easy excuse for women in first world countries to use when they are not content with something.

It is severely damaging to the agenda of activists like myself, who are pushing for equality in important things, like wage, job security, parental responsibility, when we've got some women blaming men left and right for every little problem they have. The double standards I used as examples weren't used for their legitimacy. They definitely aren't legitimate complaints, as you've rightly pointed out. They were used to highlight the type of ridiculous complaints some women make: partly true, but devaluing the agenda. I put it from a male point of view to show YY what a similar female complaint looks like from a guy's eyes - somewhat trivial.

This is a much weaker claim (as in, it's arguing for a weaker conclusion) than before. However, that's a problem nearly all movements face. A misinformed minority will be very vocal about their lack of knowledge. It happens to religions, feminism and other political movements.

But one thing I'd like to know is why you think it is 'severely damaging' to equality. It's damaging to the face of the movement but again, they aren't judged at face value. II don't think a judge would take into account the view of a 15 year old girl who learned about feminism on tumblr when making important decisions on gender equality. I don't know how I'd reach the conclusion that such talk is severely damaging to the movement.

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Meh, I started writing this before yii yann's boyfriend posted, but I'm too lazy to change things now. The last paragraph is probably the only one slightly relevant with his correction, but oh well. Haven't really made up my mind yet whether or not I agree (and how I'd answer) the claim that women use feminism as an excuse, I might come back if I have some points to contribute in that respect.

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I disagree that feminism has in any way gone obsolete for a number of reasons. I am now, of course, talking about the true feminism, the one where gender equality is the focal point and not some extremist sub-group of 'feminism'.

First of all, perhaps the most glaring example of why feminism still is important in the 'developed' world, is the recent Santa Barbara murders conducted by Elliot Rodger. If you're not familiar with this Rodger guy, he was a very narcissistic guy who believed that the duty of women was to please him, and decided to kill people as a revenge because all the women he knew had rejected him.

Now, you might want to argue that Rodger is a particular case, but then you might be surprised by the massive support he received in the aftermath from other men. An incredible number of men (online, unsurprisingly) voiced their agreement with Rodger, and exclaimed that he did good. Although most of these opinions were voiced online, it is apparent that they persist in our 'developed' world as well - there are people with these thoughts walking around. This by and in itself is a reason enough for feminism to be considered valid also in the so-called 'developed countries.' Women have no obligation to please men, there are no intrinsic rights for men to be pleased by women.

Secondly, there's the focus on what beauty is and all that. AWB mentioned that he had never seen any ads stating that 'real men likes curves' or something to that effect. I haven't either. All I see in the media are unhealthily thin women and advice on 'how to become thin,' 'how to get a nice butt for the summer' and 'how to look pretty,' as if that is the only things that matter. Women with a healthy weight are made fun of - they are too thick, too curvy, less attractive. Now, it is true that obese men are not considered as very attractive, but neither are normal AND obese women. Men with a healthy weight (or even slightly overweight) are not being looked down upon or being considered less appealing. Things have begun to change slightly, at least in Norway, where a woman who goes to the gym often and has a fit body is more attractive than anorexic bodies. Although it's better health-wise, I'm unsure whether or not this will actually change things fundamentally.

Thirdly, what if we consider rape, violence, job availability and wages? Yet again, in most countries, the disadvantaged group is women. Women are more vulnerable to rape, abuse and violence, have a lesser chance of getting a high position in a company and get less paid than men. This is a well-established fact.

By now I think it's clear that I think that feminism still must be considered as a very important part of our society. However, is it successful? There's no reason to discuss the movement's previous successes, those should be quite obvious to all of us, however can feminism continue and be successful in our society today? On this point, I would argue that it would not see as many successes in its current form. What I've noticed, is that feminists criticise men and their ignorance in an apparent assumption

that men can easily understand what women experiences. This is, however, not the case (see, for instance, this article, for a simple explanation: http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2014/05/_yesallwomen_in_the_wake_of_elliot_rodger_why_it_s_so_hard_for_men_to_recognize.html). 'Men,' to generalise, have never truly experienced the disadvantages and unfairness women go through. If the feminist movement is to progress, it needs to take height for this and find an approach that allows men to truly understand the severity of misogyny and gender inequality.

Of course, this all has to be seen holistically. There are a number of things men cannot do, which has been pointed out. Men criticising women or any women's movements are usually frowned upon, whereas women doing the same are not. A male nurse is considered weird, a female nurse is not. An emotional man is considered weak, an emotional woman is not ( --- this is perhaps up to debate, and probably depends a bit on context). If we are fighting for gender equality, which is what true feminism is doing, then, in today's society, we also need to see beyond the woman's perspective, and also take in account certain things that affect men more. Now, I am definitely not saying that the gender inequality disadvantages men as much (or more) than women, clearly women are and have been at a greater disadvantage. However, how fair would it be to neglect these aspects of gender equality and only focus on women when we're talking about gender equality? In fact, why aren't we also talking more about LGBTQ people in this respect as well?

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While I do thik your boyfriend means well and is making some very salient points about first-world feminism and its loudly touted excesses, I do think the examples you pointed out are easily counter-argued against.

1. The multitude of ads that portray fat women as "simply curvy" or "more to love", positive slogans ("Real men love a curvy woman"). etc. Whereas fat men are almost invariably portrayed as balding, sweating, disgusting perverts.
Yes, but why are 'curvaceous' women told to love themselves and be proud and embrace their curves like a mantra? Because every magazine you open, every tabloid, every photograph portrays women as these perfect barbie stick figures. The reason the 'curvy woman' is perceived to be almost aggressively embraced today is because women facing insecurities with the way they look is a major, major issue, particularly in first-world countries. This comes from the fact that 'embrace your curves', whilst a popular slogan, is not how women are made to feel. Many find it to be a well-intentioned lip service to an ideal at best.

No matter what popular culture demands we think about 'curvy' women, it doesn't change the fact that 'curvy women' are subjected to similar treatment as 'fat men'.

Of course the problem arises with the many instances of fat men who may be "balding, sweating and disgusting perverts", but are also successful. Men who are making a good living for themselves. For many, many women (again, apologies for the generalisation, but consider it anecdotal evidence), a man who is successful, who weilds power and authority, is an aphrodisiac of sorts. The opposite is not as true.
A successfu 'curvy' woman will never be treated the same as a successful 'fat' man. Hence, a 'curvy' woman has to learn to embrace her curves and love herself for all she is because she is told repeatedly, mostly passively and indirectly, that no matter how much ever success she obtains, her treatment will always be different because of her looks.
A feminist loudly claiming that other people are being sexist is "strong willed", but a male questioning the feminist is automatically a "woman hater", an "anti feminist" or a "gender nazi".
When a man acts aggressively and demands action be taken in the way he wants, he is seen to be a MAN, who is TAKING CHARGE. When a womon does the same, she's called a bitch.
There a ton of generalisations to this effect that benefit and hurt both genders.
When a man claims a woman is hot, has a nice ass, etc, he is a chauvinistic pig who treats women as property, yet when women go crazy over hot celebrities its totally okay.
When I say Jennifer Lawrence is smoking and a girl says Ryan Gosling is hot, there's nothing wrong about it, they're celebrities. When a girl says that the guy sitting next to her in class is 'a total babe' and she would 'tap that', that is creepy. If I said it, it would still be creepy. Creepy is creepy.
Women are allowed to complain about perceived injustices, but men are supposed to keep quiet and "let the women complain".

I promise that I complain about a lot of things. My girlfriends/female friends in the past have listened, hemmed and hawed along as they had to, and were nice and full of advice as well. The idea of 'letting the woman complain' comes from a generalisation that women complain about more things. I think that's rubbish. Some people complain more than others, such people can be men or women.

I will say this though: Men are expected to complain less. This isn't a pressure that women have put on us, it's simply a part of the gender roles that have been assigned to us. I should add that this is purely from my experience: But my dad being the conservative man that he is has often told me to "stop complaining and be a man." Women, per society, are allowed to express their feelings as complaints, nagging, tears, etc., men, not so much. But this, in and of itself, is not an issue caused by feminism or over-feminism, it's a completely different problem born from society's expectations of what men should be like.

Then he politely let me know that every person has problems because of a certain factor: racism, sexism, weight, height, looks, wealth, education, intelligence, etc. Just because a person's problem possibly stems from sexism doesn't automatically make it more important and/or worse than the person who's suffering an injustice due to some other factor.

This, I agree with.

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Quote

A feminist loudly claiming that other people are being sexist is "strong willed", but a male questioning the feminist is automatically a "woman hater", an "anti feminist" or a "gender nazi".
"When a man acts aggressively and demands action be taken in the way he wants, he is seen to be a MAN, who is TAKING CHARGE. When a womon does the same, she's called a bitch.
There a ton of generalisations to this effect that benefit and hurt both genders."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOjNcZvwjxI&feature=kp

This pantene ad shows this point so clearly....

Edited by cricketcrazynerd
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I think that feminism is needed because gender equality hasn't been achieved fully yet.

But in current times it has been used by oversensitive, melodramatic and attention-deficient women on Tumblr as an excuse for everything and to claim that they are oppressed in ridiculous ways.

If you want to see examples: http://www.reddit.com/r/tumblrinaction

I realise that feminism is needed but I immediately think of these "Social Justice Warriors"(SJW) on Tumblr whenever I hear "I'm a feminist". I can't help become skeptical of what they are saying and look for cues that indicate that this person is one of those crazy SJWs.

It has become very difficult to take feminism seriously because of these SJWs. It is a shame because there is still gender inequality in both developed and developing countries. The SJWs are seriously tarnishing the reputation of feminism.

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  • 3 weeks later...

  1. The multitude of ads that portray fat women as "simply curvy" or "more to love", positive slogans ("Real men love a curvy woman"). etc. Whereas fat men are almost invariably portrayed as balding, sweating, disgusting perverts.

 

I've never found this to be the case.  We make fun of fat women more often than we do of fat men.

 

 

  1. A feminist loudly claiming that other people are being sexist is "strong willed", but a male questioning the feminist is automatically a "woman hater", an "anti feminist" or a "gender nazi".

That would depend on the makeup of the audience - in certain situations the opposite could occur, and the man being an anti-feminist is labeled "alpha" while the feminist crying sexism is labeled a "militant lesbian feminazi."  The difference is that sexism against women is far, far more common than sexism against men, as evidenced by the demographic makeup of Congress and the CEOs of major fortune 500 companies.  It's the same reason why a black person complaining about racism will be taken seriously presumably his/her qualms are reasonable, while a white person whining about racism will, barring a few legitimate cases, rightly be labeled a petty, spoiled brat.

 

 

  1. When a man claims a woman is hot, has a nice ass, etc, he is a chauvinistic pig who treats women as property, yet when women go crazy over hot celebrities its totally okay. 

 

Justifiable, IMHO:

 

1. Men don't have the same vulnerability in regards to sexual interactions as women do, and typically do not feel as threatened by sexual remarks made by random women.

2. The issue here isn't the sexual language, but the [alleged] focus on sex appeal at the expense of intelligence, personality, etc.  Women have traditionally be marginalized in this manner.  Men have not, and therefore we aren't as sensitive for them.

 

 

  1. Women are allowed to complain about perceived injustices, but men are supposed to keep quiet and "let the women complain". 

 

Speaking as a male, women, even in the western world, are still overall at a disadvantage in terms of safety, employment opportunities, political influence, etc.  You could verify this empirically by looking at salary comparisons, the demographic makeup of Congress, etc.  We control the majority of political and economic capita; ergo, we aren't exactly in a position to complain about our being males.  While you could probably find a few specific cases where men are prejudiced against, ie, males receive harsher prison sentences for equivalent crimes, holistic data points such as financial capita and political leverage still favor men.  Barring a few crazy radical loonies, I would argue that feminism is still a legitimate cause to fight for in Western nations.  In the same manner, there are some caucasions (of which I am not) who complain about perceived "reverse racism", and that policies to combat ethnic discrimination are no longer needed in wester countries - a quick perusal of employment and incarceration rates suggests that they're just being whiny, not because we think it's OK to discriminate against caucasions, but because such discrimination really isn't a significant concern in 99% of cases. 

Edited by Andy Sebastian
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