# Energy conservation violation

## Recommended Posts

First of all, I would like to say that this model is NOT a perpetual motion. It will stop eventually. What I want to say here is that the output useful work seems to be greater than input energy

My system consists of 2 elements. Each element is a cylinder put on an axle. There are two permanent magnets stuck on each cylinder, with their north poles are faced outside. In the youtube clip that I will show you below, you can see the magnets of the first element are painted in blue, while those of the second one are crossed with X.

I turn the cylinders slightly so that the north poles of the magnets are faced each other. Then, the thrust between magnets make the cylinders rotate.

A single cylinder on an axle itself is not the system. It is an element of the system, which consists of 2 at all. Therefore, the thrust between magnets is not external force which affect system. It is comprehended as internal force between 2 elements of the system. The thrust from the first cylinder makes the second rotate, and the thrust from the second, in its turn, make the first rotate. Each component act as the cause to make the other rotate, and it acquires the affect from the other to rotate.

While the input work of the system originates from a small force making cylinders moving short arc, and make magnets facing each other, the output dynamic energy is much higher. You can see in the clip that both cylinders rotate many circles, which create output useful work much greater than the work to make the magnets facing each other.

Here is the link of my clip

Your comments are welcomed to determine that if energy conservation is violated in this case or not

Thanks

Thinh Nghiem from Vietnam

##### Share on other sites

ChÃ o báº¡n!

Very nicely done demonstration, i must say. As of the actual question itself, I think you are making an assertion that â€œthe output dynamic energy is much higherâ€, while in fact, it is not.

First of all, I want to use an analogy before actually analyzing your experiment. Letâ€™s take a system of pendulum for example. Now it only takes you a small amount of energy to lift the pendulum above the equilibrium position (this energy is calculated by E=mgh). Right after you release the pendulum, it will oscillate continuously until all the energy has dissipated away. Now, here you might think that the output dynamic energy of the pendulum is much higher compared to the energy that youâ€™ve put in. Well, NO itâ€™s not!!! What actually happens is the internal energy transformation within the system of pendulum (from gravitational potential energy to kinetic energy to gravitational potential energy, etcâ€¦..), which makes it possible for the pendulum to oscillate for that long.

Similarly, what your experiment has demonstrated is really the internal transformation of energy within the system of the cylinders. First, you put in some energy into the system which keeps the 2 magnets in line. This energy will then be used to push the magnets away from each other; i.e. the energy has been transformed into the kinetic energy of the magnets. However, as these magnets rotate around the axes, they will eventually slow down, gaining magnetic potential energy as they move closer to each other again. This process keeps repeating itself until your original input energy has been dissipated away from the system in the form of heat.

So generally, itâ€™s all about the internal energy transformation (from magnetic potential energy to kinetic energy, and then back to potential energy again, etcâ€¦..) within your system of the 2 cylinders. Therefore, energy conservation is not violated here!!!

Really sorry for this messy post (I didnâ€™t have too much time to organize my thoughts properly). So do tell me if anything is unclear! Hope this helps

Edited by Vioh
• 1

##### Share on other sites

Hi Vioh,

How can you speak Vietnamese?

The transformation, as you said, is the internal force inside the system, not the external. I just compare the external input to the output

What happens if I can improve my model, so that the rotating can last at least 5 minutes?

##### Share on other sites

How can you speak Vietnamese?

Haha, Iâ€™m Vietnamese too

What happens if I can improve my model, so that the rotating can last at least 5 minutes?

It doesnâ€™t matter how good your improvements are. You canâ€™t prove that the energy conservation is wrong unless youâ€™ve created a so-called perpetual machine (which I personally think is impossible to invent). The important thing is that you have to differentiate between internal and external energy transformations. A system can really only loses its energy when the input energy (an external source of energy) is transformed into heat (which is basically useless work) due to some form of resistive force. Your system of the 2 cylinders stops moving after a while due to the resistive force from the air that surrounds the system. Similar things also happen to the system of pendulum. And note that these are all results of the law of energy conservation!!!

Throughout the history of physics, people have never seen anything that violates the energy conservation, unless you step into the fields of quantum physics or particle physics. Here, energy conservation is violated by the process of quantum tunneling or by the existence of virtual particles. So I personally think that you should stop trying to build models using classical mechanics to prove that conservation of energy is wrong, but maybe start researching into quantum mechanics instead.

## Create an account

Register a new account