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Are You a Feminist?


bethiedrama101

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When evaluating a job, men tend to value salary more highly while women tend to value other benefits like healthcae, maternity leave, etc (whether this difference is simply a general difference between the sexes or the product of societal pressures is an entirely different discussion). Additionally, women are less likely to negotiate for a higher salary.

 

 

uhm... how is that "an entirely different discussion"? I mean, the statistics is there, that "women make 70 cents for every dollar that a man makes" (as you've already pointed out). And I think the discussion here is about whether gender inequality is the reason for that stat figure.

 

To me, I'm absolutely convinced that the reasons for why 'women are less likely to negotiate for higher salary or spend more time on maternity leave' are entirely because of societal pressures, or at least because of the conservative tradition of viewing women as less equal compared to men; a tradition that somehow still exists in our society today. So I wouldn't say that the gender pay gap is the result of gender discrimination committed by the employers, but I strongly believe that the pay gap is caused by gender inequality one way or another.

 

 

Actually, the 70c for $1.00 is if you take all the wages of every woman and divide it by the number of women, and all the wages of men and divide it by the number of men. It doesn't factor in occupation, working hours (full-time or part-time), etc, etc. If you also factor in their age, if they've had a child (and therefore whether the father has paternity leave or not also plays a role because then women are less likely to leave the workplace for such a long time), apparently when those factors are controlled, it's actually closer to 91c to 95c to $1.00, which still displays there's inherent inequality that has to be changed, but it's far better than 77c.

 

However, that's not important. The important thing is that we encourage women to go into other branches that are higher-paying by giving them right education and not being biased against it as a society, but we also have to ensure we have workers for the lowing paying jobs! We need men to go into teaching, counselling, secretary, and so on jobs to maintain a balance. Yes, there is a gender gap, but it's less to do with employers skiving off on jobs and more about your choices, particularly when you go into university. You might adore a subject, and that's awesome, but those subjects won't necessarily get you jobs that pay well - unless, of course, we made it so every job would have the same wages, which, well, I don't entirely agree with. We also need to allow more flexibility with men's jobs because often the job of looking after the child falls solely upon the woman instead of both parents, meaning women are more likely to fall behind in that regard.

 

Also, about negotiating job rises... call me a victim blamer (or whatever the term that's being used is, I can't recall at the moment), but shouldn't we, as women, break out of those boundaries ourselves? If there's evidence to show that we won't negotiate, why don't we all go, "Okay, so that's the problem? Let's start negotiating then." Undoubtedly this is because of my lack of experience with a job, but if you see a problem and you have a solution... why not just go for it? Feel free to prove me wrong with it though.)

 

Some sources/interesting reads (there's a good youtube video out there somewhere too, but I can't find it at the moment):

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  • 2 weeks later...

Also, about negotiating job rises... call me a victim blamer (or whatever the term that's being used is, I can't recall at the moment), but shouldn't we, as women, break out of those boundaries ourselves? If there's evidence to show that we won't negotiate, why don't we all go, "Okay, so that's the problem? Let's start negotiating then." Undoubtedly this is because of my lack of experience with a job, but if you see a problem and you have a solution... why not just go for it? Feel free to prove me wrong with it though.)

 

 

Because they're afraid that if they ask for more, they will lose their jobs. A lot of women have children to support and are afraid of risking their jobs. And there are bosses that aren't really keen on negotiating and think you should be grateful to them just for allowing you to work. 

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Im not necessarily a feminist, but a humanist. I believe that all humans should have equal rights.

Now yes woman are still not equal to men in some aspects such as in some cases job pay or in trades but men are not always equal to women

I bring this up as i feel like gender roles have defined our society too much on occasion.

Now im not saying gender roles are awful, and need to be banished, that would be hypocritical seeing as i am the most stereotypical 'feminine girl' there is, therefore i fit my 'gender role' quite well.

I just wish to see that gender roles would just be another thing and if someone doesn't conform to those roles or if they dont fit in to them, it wouldn't be a big deal or an issue.

I know this was a little off topic, but to wrap up my point. I believe that all humans should be equal, male female nonbinary etc. 

As well as no one should be expected or demoted for their actions because they arent "being lady like" or "being a man"

I AM AN EQUALIST 

 

 

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The important thing is that we encourage women to go into other branches that are higher-paying by giving them right education and not being biased against it as a society, but we also have to ensure we have workers for the lowing paying jobs! We need men to go into teaching, counselling, secretary, and so on jobs to maintain a balance. Yes, there is a gender gap, but it's less to do with employers skiving off on jobs and more about your choices, particularly when you go into university. You might adore a subject, and that's awesome, but those subjects won't necessarily get you jobs that pay well - unless, of course, we made it so every job would have the same wages, which, well, I don't entirely agree with.

 

 

I believe you're right in saying that women need to be encouraged to seek higher-paying jobs if they wish to be better off financially. However, if that condition (ambition in the purely financial sense of the word) is not fulfilled, I fail to see why they should aim any higher. The point is that if the majority of women doesn't even want to perform certain types of tasks, how is this inequality? It is just reality that some jobs are better paid than others, and - as you said - if you choose a job that pays less, it doesn't mean you are any less equal to other people who might earn 100k a year. You have made your choice based on your biological traits, personality and interests, and that's it. Whether or not it is just that salaries for some jobs are ridiculously high is debatable.

 

No, I do not want to be called a 'feminist' because I don't see the point in the so-called "positive discrimination" that is put to effect in workplaces and legislation (at least here in Finland if not elsewhere). I support gender equality which is a slightly different thing. The problem with feminism is the underlying assumption that women are always the 'weaker' sex that needs to reach a 100% equality in everything men do - that's not how it works in real life: you can't force women to take half of jobs in metallurgy, for instance, because most women are simply not interested in that field of study, nor can you make men choose nursery studies if they don't have a passion for that subject. You do what you are interested in. It has nothing to do with oppression.

Edited by Mikko
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  • 1 month later...

Am I the only one who wouldn't call themselves a feminist?

 

Like many user addressed before, gender equality is subjective and hard to define.

 

I believe in gender differences. Of course, there are women who are very suitable for traditional jobs for men, and vice versa. For those people, if they have the passion and want to go against the flow and fight to break the stereotypes, I say go for it! But I believe that there is a reason why, for example, man works and woman supports man in a household. 

 

Women tend to be more emotional, while men tend to be more logical. I am not saying all people are like this, there is a reason for this statement(psychological aspect). No logical fallacies pls. People are different because they are brought up differently. 

 

What I mean is, we are given roles in this society. If you don't like where you are, fight for it. If you don't want to fight for it, then too bad, stay where you are and be content. The thing with making everyone equal isn't necessarily a good thing. What about loss of individuality? 1984? A Handmaid's Tale? Brave New World? We think that's frightening, but now we think more equal is better? Not sure if this is societal influence...

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Funny thread and topic. It reminded me of my last semester in Uni when I was taking Sex and Gender class (sociology class) and we were 3 men and 25 women or so and I was the only one standing against the feminist approaches and then there were times I was **at on. Oh well! Everyone has their opinion and no one's wrong. That is what I have come to believe.

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I believe in gender equality. Not in feminism. 

 

 

I'd appreciate if you can kindly define "Equality" for me! It's just because we came across this term a couple of times when I was taking Sex and Gender last semester. It's interesting to see how people define a single word in many ways...reminds me of Socrates and his whole argument about defining something...interesting dialogue between Socrates and Plato...people should give it a read.

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I believe in gender equality. Not in feminism. 

 

 

I'd appreciate if you can kindly define "Equality" for me!

 

 

Well.. In my opinion, equality is, in this case (gender equality) the "idea" (Sorry, I don't know how to phrase this) that men and women have the same rights

Why'd you ask?

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I believe in gender equality. Not in feminism. 

 

 

I'd appreciate if you can kindly define "Equality" for me!

 

 

Well.. In my opinion, equality is, in this case (gender equality) the "idea" (Sorry, I don't know how to phrase this) that men and women have the same rights

Why'd you ask?

 

 

Yeah sorry for not mentioning before...I just edited my post up there! 

 

That's quite a general statement in my opinion, having "equal rights"

Edited by Nabz
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I believe in gender equality. Not in feminism. 

 

 

I'd appreciate if you can kindly define "Equality" for me!

 

 

Well.. In my opinion, equality is, in this case (gender equality) the "idea" (Sorry, I don't know how to phrase this) that men and women have the same rights

Why'd you ask?

 

 

Yeah sorry for not mentioning before...I just edited my post up there! 

 

That's quite a general statement in my opinion, having "equal rights"

 

 

Owww, right. Yeah yeah I totally agree

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I believe in gender equality. Not in feminism. 

 

 

I'd appreciate if you can kindly define "Equality" for me!

 

 

Well.. In my opinion, equality is, in this case (gender equality) the "idea" (Sorry, I don't know how to phrase this) that men and women have the same rights

Why'd you ask?

 

 

Yeah sorry for not mentioning before...I just edited my post up there! 

 

That's quite a general statement in my opinion, having "equal rights"

 

 

Owww, right. Yeah yeah I totally agree

 

 

I was referring to the fact that people confuse equity for equality. What we need is Equity and not Equality. Equality would mean that women having a 3 week maternal learn for example would mean that men should also have a 3 week holiday whereas equity can mean completely different thing in this example and can be very hard to work with. 

Edited by Nabz
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I believe in gender equality. Not in feminism. 

 

 

I'd appreciate if you can kindly define "Equality" for me!

 

 

Well.. In my opinion, equality is, in this case (gender equality) the "idea" (Sorry, I don't know how to phrase this) that men and women have the same rights

Why'd you ask?

 

 

Yeah sorry for not mentioning before...I just edited my post up there! 

 

That's quite a general statement in my opinion, having "equal rights"

 

 

Owww, right. Yeah yeah I totally agree

 

 

I was referring to the fact that people confuse equity for equality. What we need is Equity and not Equality. Equality would mean that women having a 3 week maternal learn for example would mean that men should also have a 3 week holiday whereas equity can mean completely different thing in this example and can be very hard to work with. 

 

 

I didn't know this word before :o Thank you :)

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  • 3 months later...

Feminism is a term that bears a lot of meaning. Every person you ask will give you a different definition, just like if you asked somebody to define what a Christian was, or what it means to be a humanitarian. Personally, I believe in gender equality, but I don't call myself a feminist because I find that movements, no matter what the dictionary says, are defined by the people in them. Feminism, just like Christianity, is basically a movement: There is a goal and people are constantly making requirements for what you have to believe in order to be either one of those things. Do you disagree that all gays should burn in hell? You can't be a Christian. Do you disagree that all men are inherently sexist? You can't be a Feminist. Now, you can say people who make statements like those aren't real Feminists or real Christians, but that just goes to prove my point that movements are made up of the people in them. They will claim you're not the real Christian/Feminist if you disagree with them, because in their mind, certain requirements must be met in order for you to be the identify with the labels they label themselves as. Every human has their own principles and morals, which they often try to put into the movement they identify with, which is why their are so many denominations of religions and feminists. I find identity politics to be silly, which is why I'd never label myself as a feminist or any other label some might argue would fit me that I don't feel comfortable with. Honestly, I feel more comfortable calling myself an anti-feminist, because so many of these organized feminist movements have done more harm, in my opinion, than good. It's the same with religion: You're free to believe in whatever you want, but I'm also free to disagree and even critique any illogical points you bring up in defense of your beliefs. I don't mean to be rude, but I do hope I made my point clear.

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  • 1 month later...
 

This makes you a feminist.

I completely understand where you're coming from, but here's some food for thought as to why IBaBeast may not believe that's what feminism stands for.

A lot of the myth of feminists being man-hating, etc, etc, comes from people who have had experiences with incredibly radical feminists - the type that clearly demonstrate their misandry but claim it doesn't exist because you need to have power to be discriminatory, which, by the way, I hope no one here believes though I will gladly take up a discussion on that belief alone (or when it goes for racism, being prejudiced according to sexual orientation, etc, etc). Anyway, so when one has a run in with that group of people, you can't exactly separate that image hence why feminists often have a bad image.

For example, let's look at the incident with police violence against African Americans. I think we can all agree that not all police officers are horrible people, out to get minorities, right? I mean, African Americans make up 13% of the population but over 1/3 of the police shootings against civilians in the past year. However, we know that it's only a select few who unfortunately have the position of authority that allows them to kill ruthlessly, and for a plethora of reasons, not get locked up. Unfortunately, there are individuals who don't see it that way and instead believe that all cops are bad - you see it in comments, you see it through the horrible shooting in Dallas, and I don't mean to use this tragedy as a way to 'advance my cause', but you have to see that these incidents and beliefs highlight that people tend to group others. When they have bad experiences with others, we, as humans, automatically go, "Okay, so this group is bad and believes these things which are dangerous for me." Unfortunately, at times it leads to cases like the Dallas shooting.

In a similar manner, having a bad experience online is a little like that, though obviously no where in the same proportions. If you're constantly getting belittled by some people on the internet who actively state they are part of this particular group, you're not going to want to be like them - you're not going to want to associate yourself with them, and chances are, you'll dislike them because they're actively being kind of terrible. In response to being attacked online, they do the same thing - attack feminists online, even those who just want equality and don't want to exert any dominance over others.

Now, the retort is usually "Oh, but those aren't real feminists", and that's a problem because whenever guys tend to go, "Oh, but I'm not that kind of guy" they're shot down immediately and dismissed as the stereotypical ******bag. I'm sorry, but isn't that hypocrisy? Why can you say "those aren't real feminists" but an individual can't go "I'm not like that group that you categorise me in". I will, however, admit, that this doesn't solve any problems - by stating "oh I'm not that kind of guy", you haven't actually addressed the real issue of the genuinely terrible people in your group. However, that's literally a problem for everyone. From police officers to misogynists to feminists to literally everyone - everyone says "I'm not that kind of person" and no one actually tries to stop the minority who are the root of the problem.

Yes, you're on the internet and you can't do much to initiate change - wait, actually, you can. If you see someone you know on the internet who's clearly not being rational and spewing hate, you can message them and go "Hey, that's a little rude when you said this because -insert rational reason-". Whilst that doesn't guarantee a change and may just be deleted, at least you're trying. It's better than going "yeah, there are terrible people in our group..." and leaving it there. Now, I know from experience that some people will laugh in your face, some people will ignore you, and some people will just spew more hate. On the other hand, there are people who take the time to discuss it with you, there are people who understand and just posted it because it's the internet and they're anonymous and can say whatever the hell they want, and there are people who are genuinely, you know, interested in thinking through what they're saying.

This got a little sidetracked, but my points are this: Firstly, there is a reason why people don't necessarily link feminists and equality - or equity, depending on which you believe feminism to be - together because of a small minority of terrible people - which is nothing uncommon; if you want it to change, we have to do something about it instead of only acknowledging they exist. Or insulting others because you don't like what they said, because apparently that's a fantastic way of getting people to agree with you. This is a little bit of a mess, but I hope my point comes across.

Another thing, by the way, is that I don't get this obsession with labelling yourself a feminist or not. Does it matter as long as you agree and walk the talk? If you just treat everyone equally and don't call yourself a feminist, is that a problem? It appears there is (not referring to you in particular, just a general observation) and I don't quite understand it. In fact, as feminism is a social movement, by having people call themselves feminists, it can actually lead to problems since you get people who clearly don't understand feminism or what it stands for calling themselves feminists, which just leads to more people going "well, feminism is clearly not equality".

Also, OMGIBISFUN read my mind.

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Another thing, by the way, is that I don't get this obsession with labelling yourself a feminist or not. Does it matter as long as you agree and walk the talk? If you just treat everyone equally and don't call yourself a feminist, is that a problem? It appears there is (not referring to you in particular, just a general observation) and I don't quite understand it. In fact, as feminism is a social movement, by having people call themselves feminists, it can actually lead to problems since you get people who clearly don't understand feminism or what it stands for calling themselves feminists, which just leads to more people going "well, feminism is clearly not equality".

I don't mind what people decide to call themselves, but from the definition feminism is "the advocacy of women's rights on the ground of the equality of the sexes", so if the guy from above said he believes in equality, this makes him a feminist  and all I did was point it out.

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Well, like I said before all that... when people act in a particular manner whilst calling themselves feminist, and it's really off-putting, it shapes the way in which feminists are received and therefore whether they'll actually think that definition of feminism is accurate in their eyes. Anyway, in terms of movements, definitions don't necessarily line up with actions, which are equally important.

Note: I hope you don't think I'm trying to attack you or the idea! I'm just really interested in this topic.

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