Religion vs. Science

[seeeeahawks]

Personally, I'm not religious. I respect whatever religion anyone wants to follow, but I strongly dislike those who decide to use it as an excuse to get away with being a tyrant. Science is a whole new realm to me, though. Sometimes, I'm not even sure which side of the argument is worse. It's really hard to think about either topic being completely true, if you understand what I mean. So what's your opinion? 

 

Religion, Science, both, or neither? 

 

This may get into a heated debate...play nice.

[Adam Sheldrake]

This is a great discussion topic,

Hmm, I'd say both because I'm a very scientific person however I just feel that some things are just meant to be, I think it's great to be able to experience something that doesn't have explaination or reason, it just happens.

I'm not saying if there is a god or not because there is no proof for either his existence or not, but I woulf like to think there is something out there watching us and keeping us safe. Also it's calming to think that there is possibly a better place when we pass away, eg. Heaven.

[Vioh]

Personally, I would say that the public should take a bigger stance against the ‘invasion’ of religions into our everyday life. I have lots of arguments for this, but I just can’t say all in one post so I’ll wait for others to comment first.

 

Sometimes, I'm not even sure which side of the argument is worse. It's really hard to think about either topic being completely true, if you understand what I mean.

 

It’s not correct to compare science against religion in this way. In fact neither turns out to be completely true. It’s just that science is more plausible compared religion because science is actually based on empirical evidence. The beauty in science is that it can actually evolve on its own, depending on whether our theoretical framework agrees with the experimental data. Looking back into the past, we can see how Einstein’s theory of relativity ‘replaces’ Newton’s model of gravity, how quantum mechanics replaces classical mechanics, or how the theory of quantum electrodynamics changes our understanding of chemistry, etc. On the other hand, religion stays in very much in the same place as it was thousands years ago. Now, I’m attacking all religions here, not just Christianity, but also Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism….

 

There’s a big difference between science and religion. Science doesn’t claim anything to be absolute, while religions do. For example, science doesn’t claim that there’s no god, but we just claim that there’s no evidence suggesting that it is so. On the other hand, religions do make really big and absolute claims. They claim that there is god because the bible says so (a bad argument). Likewise, Buddhists claim that there’s an afterlife because Buddha says so….

 

Also it's calming to think that there is possibly a better place when we pass away, eg. Heaven.

 

Well, have you thought about the 'inverse' of that thinking. In other words, do you think it's calming to think that there is possibly a worse place when we die, e.g. Hell (where people get punished for all the crimes they have done)? Tbh, I find this Heaven-Hell thing quite cruel. I would be much happier to think that there is no afterlife, because then I can work hard to make my current life really worthwhile.

 

In general, I think religions are dangerous because:

1. They make big claims and teach wrong facts. I mean, seriously, some people still think that the earth is 10000 years old,….
2. They give the public a very wrong idea of what science really is, thus leading the public to stop giving funds into the scientific research….
3. They oppress people…. Look at the women in Islamic countries. I think I can safely say that it is the religious fundamentalism that really oppresses women in these countries.

PS. For those people who seek religions for consoling purpose, I don’t really mind. Just don’t spread that to young children and claim that to be the truth.

[Adam Sheldrake]

Vioh I agree with you, I have thought about the other side however I feel that if you live your life doing positive things which make you and others happy then you must deserve a reward afterwards eg. Heaven

The idea of hell I think is just a way of straying people from doing bad

I understand that as time has passed, the things that are now determined as good and evil has changed but the idea still stands

It in a way sets morals to people and to say they can be rewarded

Also it's nice for those who fear death to have something to make them feel better, like a better place when they are gone.

[Aras]

 

In general, I think religions are dangerous because:

1. They make big claims and teach wrong facts. I mean, seriously, some people still think that the earth is 10000 years old,….
2. They give the public a very wrong idea of what science really is, thus leading the public to stop giving funds into the scientific research….
3. They oppress people…. Look at the women in Islamic countries. I think I can safely say that it is the religious fundamentalism that really oppresses women in these countries.

PS. For those people who seek religions for consoling purpose, I don’t really mind. Just don’t spread that to young children and claim that to be the truth.

 

I'm a Muslim, my religion Islam:

1- Never teaches wrong facts, in fact, it's a duty to pursue knowledge and ask question. Because 'hopfully' they will make you realize how great God 'Allah' is.

2- In fact, I think it's the neo-atheism movements that give a wrong impression of religion telling only one side of the story.

3- Islam is all about peace. Beside many Qur'anic verse, our prophet (pbuh) says: "Allah will not be merciful to those who are not merciful to mankind". The key words are 'merciful' and 'mankind', not only 'Muslims' or 'religious people', but merciful to 'mankind'. 

 

P.S. 1- If you want to know the role of Islam and Muslims in science, please do a google search. 

2- I'm a Muslim who admires science, I mean, I just LOVE Physics and Maths!

 

#Peace 

[Vioh]

Aras, I think you need to elaborate on all of the points that you mentioned here. If you look at what alefal, Emilia1320, Andy Sebastian, me and many other comments from other people in this thread http://www.ibsurvival.com/topic/21694-why-dont-you-believe-in-god/ , then you'll see that we have made a pretty strong case against yours. Remember that debate is all about being able to use good examples and reasoning to support your claims; but all you do is to use your emotions to claim something that is not supported by any examples or reasoning at all. So please elaborate more!!!

 

1- Never teaches wrong facts, in fact, it's a duty to pursue knowledge and ask question. Because 'hopfully' they will make you realize how great God 'Allah' is.

2- In fact, I think it's the neo-atheism movements that give a wrong impression of religion telling only one side of the story.

3- Islam is all about peace. Beside many Qur'anic verse, our prophet (pbuh) says: "Allah will not be merciful to those who are not merciful to mankind". The key words are 'merciful' and 'mankind', not only 'Muslims' or 'religious people', but merciful to 'mankind'. 

 

P.S. 1- If you want to know the role of Islam and Muslims in science, please do a google search. 

2- I'm a Muslim who admires science, I mean, I just LOVE Physics and Maths!

 

1. "Never teaches wrong facts? uhmm... I doubt it. What about the claim that human is made of clay? what about the claim that God created Earth in 6 days? All of these go against the true facts of science (especially evolution). I think on this point, Emilia1320 & alefal, in the other thread, have both given pretty strong arguments against your claim here

 

2. Religion is the one that tells only one side of the story, because it claims everything in the absolutist way. Science, on the other hand, does not. In fact, within science itself, there can be many different theories; and the one that correlates best with empirical evidence is picked to become part of the hard science

 

3. "Islam is all about peace". This point is very controversial. Take a look at this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quran_and_violence . As far as i understand, there are many verses in the quran that shows violence against non-believers.

 

4. Islam (as a religion) had no role whatsoever to the progress of science. Science has been progressing alone because it has self-correcting mechanism. Now this doesn't mean that there are no scientists that are Muslims. In fact, Muslims have had many contributions to science. However, their contributions are not based on their faiths, but based on their actual conducts of the scientific method. This is similar to the fact that even though Newton was the person of faith, but he made lots of contribution to physics simply because his contributions to physics were not based on his faith

 

5. To be honest, I don't care about the fact that you're a Muslim and you're interested in maths and physics. This is because it has nothing whatsoever about this debate. For me, the debate is always about which knowledge is right and which knowledge is wrong. And it's clear that the knowledge provided by rationality is more reliable compared to knowledge provided by religion, as you've probably known from TOK

 

Peace

[Aras]

Aras, I think you need to elaborate on all of the points that you mentioned here. If you look at what alefal, Emilia1320, Andy Sebastian, me and many other comments from other people in this thread http://www.ibsurvival.com/topic/21694-why-dont-you-believe-in-god/ , then you'll see that we have made a pretty strong case against yours. Remember that debate is all about being able to use good examples and reasoning to support your claims; but all you do is to use your emotions to claim something that is not supported by any examples or reasoning at all. So please elaborate more!!!

 

1- Never teaches wrong facts, in fact, it's a duty to pursue knowledge and ask question. Because 'hopfully' they will make you realize how great God 'Allah' is.

2- In fact, I think it's the neo-atheism movements that give a wrong impression of religion telling only one side of the story.

3- Islam is all about peace. Beside many Qur'anic verse, our prophet (pbuh) says: "Allah will not be merciful to those who are not merciful to mankind". The key words are 'merciful' and 'mankind', not only 'Muslims' or 'religious people', but merciful to 'mankind'. 

 

P.S. 1- If you want to know the role of Islam and Muslims in science, please do a google search. 

2- I'm a Muslim who admires science, I mean, I just LOVE Physics and Maths!

 

1. "Never teaches wrong facts? uhmm... I doubt it. What about the claim that human is made of clay? what about the claim that God created Earth in 6 days? All of these go against the true facts of science (especially evolution). I think on this point, Emilia1320 & alefal, in the other thread, have both given pretty strong arguments against your claim here

 

2. Religion is the one that tells only one side of the story, because it claims everything in the absolutist way. Science, on the other hand, does not. In fact, within science itself, there can be many different theories; and the one that correlates best with empirical evidence is picked to become part of the hard science

 

3. "Islam is all about peace". This point is very controversial. Take a look at this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quran_and_violence . As far as i understand, there are many verses in the quran that shows violence against non-believers.

 

4. Islam (as a religion) had no role whatsoever to the progress of science. Science has been progressing alone because it has self-correcting mechanism. Now this doesn't mean that there are no scientists that are Muslims. In fact, Muslims have had many contributions to science. However, their contributions are not based on their faiths, but based on their actual conducts of the scientific method. This is similar to the fact that even though Newton was the person of faith, but he made lots of contribution to physics simply because his contributions to physics were not based on his faith

 

5. To be honest, I don't care about the fact that you're a Muslim and you're interested in maths and physics. This is because it has nothing whatsoever about this debate. For me, the debate is always about which knowledge is right and which knowledge is wrong. And it's clear that the knowledge provided by rationality is more reliable compared to knowledge provided by religion, as you've probably known from TOK

 

Peace

To your points:

1-Yes, Allah created us from clay, but this doesn't mean we're being created of clay. Qur'an dosn't say 'days' as 24 hours, it says "sita ayam', ayam mean 'period of time' not 24 hours, we humans decided the units and quantities. (That's the problem, you(atheist) have a poor understating of the thing you're opposing.)

Evolution: Islam does not refuse evolution as a process of development, but it does refuse the beginning of species the way evolution suggests. Allah is aware of everything happening. He is the "Creator" and the "Evolver".  Allah says: "Verily in the heavens and the earth are signs for those who believe. And in the creation of yourselves, and the fact that animals are scattered (through the earth), are signs for those of assured faith. And in the alternation of night and day, and that fact that Allah sends down sustenance from the sky, and revives therewith the earth after its death, and in the change of the winds, are signs for those who are wise" (45:3-5).

 

2- It's because it IS the absolute way. second, it's because science and religion are different! You don't do experiment in religion the way you do in science. (Stop using scientific term for religion for God's sake).

 

3- "If one amongst the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of Allah; and then escort him to where he can be secure. That is because they are men without knowledge" you call this violence?  There're circumstance when you need to be violent. You yourself, if someone attacks your home, tr to hurt your family, would you sit and watch?  (well maybe, because science didn't  think about that)

 

4-Once again, you closing your eyes and attacking. sorry to use these words, but please you have a wonderful brain, use it. The purity of Islam drove those Muslim scientists, again, to praise the greatness of Allah. not to use it against Him.

 

5- I don't need you or anyone to care actually. The point was to make you see that there're religious people who admire science and evidence. (you missed that point either). I personally don't debate to "win", I'll state the facts and leave you with them to decide.  As Islam has taught me, I'll only guide.

 

Peace

[DocWonder]

Could someone fill me in, is it the innate conflict with Religious organization or the spirituality of "said religion" that causes problems? I just wanna understand why someone would state that there's an "invasion" of religion in our everyday lives? 

Edited January 4, 2015 by DocWonder

[King112]

I guess people would say that there is an "invasion" of religion in everyday lives because pf the fanatics forming. Like every religion in the world has people who go crazy and say shoot everyone who doesnt listen to me. and that has increased off late. I guess often politicians cause it because they need to cover their ass. so create a huge controversy and war, the politicians get away scott free right?

I guess you could call that an invasion. That what i figured from my reading of the paper. i might be wrong though

[Vioh]

Could someone fill me in, is it the innate conflict with Religious organization or the spirituality of "said religion" that causes problems? I just wanna understand why someone would state that there's an "invasion" of religion in our everyday lives? 

 

Well, it's cleared that organized religion causes lots of problems in the world. Organized religions (especially Christian church or Islamic community, and probably lots of other religious organizations) have opposed many advancement of scientific research, in which one of the most dangerous one is to oppose against stem-cell research. Organized religion opposes the teaching of science in schools, thus it opposes our standards of education (which is to teach true facts to students). Organized religion also supported many 'anti-social' behaviors. Religion shows harsh treatments towards homosexuals. It lowers the equality between men & women. It (especially fundamental Christians) promotes spanking of children. Organized religion also tends to have a very authoritarian approach towards almost everything. For example, I have heard of many executions of people in Islamic countries just because they criticized their own religion. In other words, the human right in religious countries is statistically much lower compared to non-religious countries. Organizations that promote religious extremism also cause quite a lot of problems in the world nowadays, e.g. ISIS, al-Qaida, or Taliban terrorist organizations as they fight in the name of faith & use religion to recruit people.

 

I have said enough about organized religion. Now i'd like to say more about how religion invades our everyday life. First of all, religion teaches people the wrong facts (facts that contradict against science). Well, this does not bring so much harm to an average person in society. I mean, life just goes on. However, if you asked me what is the most important thing that i got out of IB, I would probably say it is critical thinking (i.e. to be able to critically analyze the source of information). And religious texts (such as the Quran & Bible) can't possibly be considered as valid & reliable sources. So I would say that religious thinking prevents our critical thinking ability. 

 

Secondly, religious thinking makes us vulnerable (or more tolerant) to mystical ideas, such as alternative medicine, mystical ceremonies, or irrational things such as astrology. I don't want to make generalization here, but from my experience, the more religious a person, the more vulnerable that person is towards these superstitions. I have seen this relationship from my close relatives (who are religious), from many of my friends, and from many developing countries. In fact, you can see this directly from history. In the past, superstitions & mysticism were often promoted in religious societies. An usual example would be sacrificing ceremonies. I believe that superstitions & mysticism cannot be part of any civilized society. And if history has taught me anything worthwhile, it is to not repeat the same mistakes from the past. Therefore, I refuse to let our civilization roll back to the Middle Ages.

 

In general, i can't think of any downside if religion happens to disappear from society. But from the points i have drawn up above, i honestly think that the world would become a much better place without religion. Finally, i'd like to apologize for my very brief analysis of your question. I simply didn't have enough time to elaborate on all my points. But that's broadly what I think about religion anyway.

[Emmi]

Well, it's cleared that organized religion causes lots of problems in the world. Organized religions (especially Christian church or Islamic community, and probably lots of other religious organizations) have opposed many advancement of scientific research, in which one of the most dangerous one is to oppose against stem-cell research. Organized religion opposes the teaching of science in schools, thus it opposes our standards of education (which is to teach true facts to students). Organized religion also supported many 'anti-social' behaviors. Religion shows harsh treatments towards homosexuals. It lowers the equality between men & women. It (especially fundamental Christians) promotes spanking of children. Organized religion also tends to have a very authoritarian approach towards almost everything. For example, I have heard of many executions of people in Islamic countries just because they criticized their own religion. In other words, the human right in religious countries is statistically much lower compared to non-religious countries. Organizations that promote religious extremism also cause quite a lot of problems in the world nowadays, e.g. ISIS, al-Qaida, or Taliban terrorist organizations as they fight in the name of faith & use religion to recruit people.

 

I have said enough about organized religion. Now i'd like to say more about how religion invades our everyday life. First of all, religion teaches people the wrong facts (facts that contradict against science). Well, this does not bring so much harm to an average person in society. I mean, life just goes on. However, if you asked me what is the most important thing that i got out of IB, I would probably say it is critical thinking (i.e. to be able to critically analyze the source of information). And religious texts (such as the Quran & Bible) can't possibly be considered as valid & reliable sources. So I would say that religious thinking prevents our critical thinking ability. 

 

Secondly, religious thinking makes us vulnerable (or more tolerant) to mystical ideas, such as alternative medicine, mystical ceremonies, or irrational things such as astrology. I don't want to make generalization here, but from my experience, the more religious a person, the more vulnerable that person is towards these superstitions. I have seen this relationship from my close relatives (who are religious), from many of my friends, and from many developing countries. In fact, you can see this directly from history. In the past, superstitions & mysticism were often promoted in religious societies. An usual example would be sacrificing ceremonies. I believe that superstitions & mysticism cannot be part of any civilized society. And if history has taught me anything worthwhile, it is to not repeat the same mistakes from the past. Therefore, I refuse to let our civilization roll back to the Middle Ages.

 

In general, i can't think of any downside if religion happens to disappear from society. But from the points i have drawn up above, i honestly think that the world would become a much better place without religion. Finally, i'd like to apologize for my very brief analysis of your question. I simply didn't have enough time to elaborate on all my points. But that's broadly what I think about religion anyway.

 

 

I'm not really sure why you're so quick to dismiss religion and provide vast generalizations about religious societies and their treatment of science, when in many times throughout history the opposite is true. Many religious individuals and societies have given us great advancements in science, mathematics, and technology without letting their religious morals interfere with their search for what is the truth.

 

There are many examples, but I'll focus on Islam and Christianity since those are the two you mention in your post. Most of these come from Wikipedia sources, and while Wikipedia isn't exactly the most reputable/respectable source, I think it will work here.

 

Islam:

- Mathematician al-Khwarizmi is considered to be one of the fathers of algebra, itself an Arabic word. Some of his contributions include generalizing solutions to Diophantine equations and solving for the positive roots of first and second order linear and quadratic polynomials.

- Mathematician Sharaf al-Din al-Tusi discovered methods to investigate cubic equations that are still used today

- Mathematicial al-Karaji discovered that sequences such as x, x^2, x^3 extend to infinity and gave the rules for simple arithmetic of polynomials

- Scientist al-Biruni brought the fields of statics and dynamics into the broader field of mechanics and founded hydrodynamics, among other things

- Scientist ibn al-Haytham made several contributions to the field of optics

- Scientist ibn Bajjah proposed an early version of a theory that would later become Newton's Third Law of Motion

 

The majority of these occurred during the Islamic Golden Age.

 

Christianity:

- George Stokes, who gave us Stokes' Theorem and many contributions to fluid mechanics, was president of an evangelical institute, vice president of a bible study, and did missionary work

- Johannes Kepler, who gave us celestial mechanics, was very religious

- Blaise Pascal, of Pascal's Triangle, was very religious and had a religious conversion early in his life

- Michael Faraday, who formed Faraday's Law in electromagnetism, was very religious and even turned down knighthood because he felt it went against the Bible's teachings

- Kurt Godel, who made lots of mathematical contributions, was a theist who believed in an afterlife

 

And I think an extremely compelling example is the person who laid the foundations for the Big Bang Theory, the creation of the universe, a theory most astronomers believe to be correct, was a Catholic priest.

 

While there are also many cases of religious societies promoting authoritarianism and lacking human rights, that doesn't necessarily have to be the case. Take China, which is becoming largely secular or agnostic, who at times has had a questionable human rights record. I don't think you should use extreme fringe groups as an example of "Religion bad! Ban all religion!" These groups are overwhelmingly condemned by moderates of their religion. Most Muslims aren't going to support ISIS/ISIL or al-Qaeda's actions. Most Christians do not support groups like the Westboro Baptist Church and acknowledge and understand that sacrifices and superstitions like witches were wrong and have no place in modern society. All of the Christians I know (with the exception of one person, who's a special case in himself) have no desire to return back to the Middle Ages and view their religion in a modern context.

 

I disagree that simply being religious means you're inclined to believe in the mystical and irrational. That's simply not the case. In addition to all of those great scientists and thinkers from history, I know many people in my personal life that are studying mathematics, physics, and engineering who are very religious. I have two friends, one studying mechanical engineering and one studying electrical engineering, who are both very devout Catholics. My former pastor and church officials never once discouraged me, a woman, going into the scary and God-destroying science and engineering field. My mother is religious and loves watching science and nature documentaries. Many people understand that science isn't trying to destroy their beliefs.

 

I think that getting rid of religion would have downsides. Religion is tied to a lot of history (both good and bad), scientific advancements, and art. When done properly, religion can definitely benefit society, and I don't think religion and science have to be mutually exclusive.

[BrianHQ]

Religion and science have always been ways to understand what is happening around us and what are we doing in here. Either you try to believe in divine forces that create all the existence and follow up their principals or you try to explain what is going on through empirical observation and experimentation.

 

At first, we have the religions that have been trying to defend their statements throughout time using everything they have, from medieval tortures and fear to well structure speeches to brainwash the society. Obviously, I don’t mean every religion have done this, but I can ensure that most of them have used, at least once, harsh techniques to impose their thoughts and believes. For instance, the power of religion was used in the medieval ages to bow down the population, submitting them to the power of the monarchy which was associated with the catholic church.

 

Nonetheless, science is not lagging behind, sometimes it also separates completely the moral and ethics and goes to far. Some people might say that this is part of experimentation, but where can we establish the limits in terms of science? If we go back in time, we can remember the horrible experiments that the nazi scientifics where doing in the 2WW experimenting with children and newborns as if they were simple bags of flesh. In addition, a more specific example of how science goes to far, is the Project 4.1, which was, basically, a medical study conducted with residents of the Marshall Islands who were exposed to radiation in one of the nuclear tests that were made in 1954, leading to the development of tumors and different types of cancer.

 

Both of them, religions and science, have done horrible things to defend their ideals, trying to eradicate the existence of the opposite. However, you can take advantage of some things from each part (or the one you want). The religion is for some not only a way of thinking, but also a guideline to push their life each day believing that their respective god is helping them; and the science might be a wonderful way to explain how the world works and our role in it.

 

Personally, I’m an atheist and I do not believe in any kind of religion. I suppose that the science is the one that best suits my way of thinking so I feel it is what I should support.

 

Kind regards,

 

Brian HQ

 

P.D.: By the way, please forgive my English.

Edited January 6, 2015 by BrianHQ

[Emilia1320]

Aras, I think you need to elaborate on all of the points that you mentioned here. If you look at what alefal, Emilia1320, Andy Sebastian, me and many other comments from other people in this thread http://www.ibsurvival.com/topic/21694-why-dont-you-believe-in-god/ , then you'll see that we have made a pretty strong case against yours. Remember that debate is all about being able to use good examples and reasoning to support your claims; but all you do is to use your emotions to claim something that is not supported by any examples or reasoning at all. So please elaborate more!!!

 

1- Never teaches wrong facts, in fact, it's a duty to pursue knowledge and ask question. Because 'hopfully' they will make you realize how great God 'Allah' is.

2- In fact, I think it's the neo-atheism movements that give a wrong impression of religion telling only one side of the story.

3- Islam is all about peace. Beside many Qur'anic verse, our prophet (pbuh) says: "Allah will not be merciful to those who are not merciful to mankind". The key words are 'merciful' and 'mankind', not only 'Muslims' or 'religious people', but merciful to 'mankind'. 

 

P.S. 1- If you want to know the role of Islam and Muslims in science, please do a google search. 

2- I'm a Muslim who admires science, I mean, I just LOVE Physics and Maths!

 

1. "Never teaches wrong facts? uhmm... I doubt it. What about the claim that human is made of clay? what about the claim that God created Earth in 6 days? All of these go against the true facts of science (especially evolution). I think on this point, Emilia1320 & alefal, in the other thread, have both given pretty strong arguments against your claim here

 

2. Religion is the one that tells only one side of the story, because it claims everything in the absolutist way. Science, on the other hand, does not. In fact, within science itself, there can be many different theories; and the one that correlates best with empirical evidence is picked to become part of the hard science

 

3. "Islam is all about peace". This point is very controversial. Take a look at this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quran_and_violence . As far as i understand, there are many verses in the quran that shows violence against non-believers.

 

4. Islam (as a religion) had no role whatsoever to the progress of science. Science has been progressing alone because it has self-correcting mechanism. Now this doesn't mean that there are no scientists that are Muslims. In fact, Muslims have had many contributions to science. However, their contributions are not based on their faiths, but based on their actual conducts of the scientific method. This is similar to the fact that even though Newton was the person of faith, but he made lots of contribution to physics simply because his contributions to physics were not based on his faith

 

5. To be honest, I don't care about the fact that you're a Muslim and you're interested in maths and physics. This is because it has nothing whatsoever about this debate. For me, the debate is always about which knowledge is right and which knowledge is wrong. And it's clear that the knowledge provided by rationality is more reliable compared to knowledge provided by religion, as you've probably known from TOK

 

Peace

To your points:

1-Yes, Allah created us from clay, but this doesn't mean we're being created of clay. Qur'an dosn't say 'days' as 24 hours, it says "sita ayam', ayam mean 'period of time' not 24 hours, we humans decided the units and quantities. (That's the problem, you(atheist) have a poor understating of the thing you're opposing.)

Evolution: Islam does not refuse evolution as a process of development, but it does refuse the beginning of species the way evolution suggests. Allah is aware of everything happening. He is the "Creator" and the "Evolver".  Allah says: "Verily in the heavens and the earth are signs for those who believe. And in the creation of yourselves, and the fact that animals are scattered (through the earth), are signs for those of assured faith. And in the alternation of night and day, and that fact that Allah sends down sustenance from the sky, and revives therewith the earth after its death, and in the change of the winds, are signs for those who are wise" (45:3-5).

 

2- It's because it IS the absolute way. second, it's because science and religion are different! You don't do experiment in religion the way you do in science. (Stop using scientific term for religion for God's sake).

 

3- "If one amongst the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of Allah; and then escort him to where he can be secure. That is because they are men without knowledge" you call this violence?  There're circumstance when you need to be violent. You yourself, if someone attacks your home, tr to hurt your family, would you sit and watch?  (well maybe, because science didn't  think about that)

 

4-Once again, you closing your eyes and attacking. sorry to use these words, but please you have a wonderful brain, use it. The purity of Islam drove those Muslim scientists, again, to praise the greatness of Allah. not to use it against Him.

 

5- I don't need you or anyone to care actually. The point was to make you see that there're religious people who admire science and evidence. (you missed that point either). I personally don't debate to "win", I'll state the facts and leave you with them to decide.  As Islam has taught me, I'll only guide.

 

Peace

I think here is actually the point. I think the problem is on religions overally, but now let's take Christiniaty and Islam's creation myth into consideration. You say we were created out of clay. Well, I can't go back and see if that is true or not but we can investigate clay, and the human being. Well, the clay is mostly inorganic compounds, while there is maybe some quantities of carbonic acids in some cases it's certainly not enough to form humans. Plus, for amino acids there would have to be nitrogen. Now, I can't tell if clay now is the same than it was back then but again, I don't have to. Human being didn't just become from monkey a human; process was very very slow. And it all, according the most accurate evidence I have, started on the seas.

Then creating the universe that at least Christianity speaks about. It goes somewhat like that God says "there is the light" and then light appears. Wait.... Energy out of nowhere? No no...

[Emmi]

Then creating the universe that at least Christianity speaks about. It goes somewhat like that God says "there is the light" and then light appears. Wait.... Energy out of nowhere? No no...

 

If you have some spare time, read up a little bit on quantum fluctuations and vacuum genesis. What it essentially boils down to is that quantum mechanics does allow for small, brief violations of the law of conservation of energy in which a particle, in this case a "virtual" particle, can pop in and out of existence and interact with matter. And since we have Einstein's famous E = mc^2, mass and energy can be created from each other. Here's a pretty neat article about virtual particles that explains a little bit what they are and why they're important for helping understand the origins of our universe: http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/are-virtual-particles-rea/

 

I'm not suggesting that this proves that a God exists or doesn't exist, but it does seem possible, shown through experimental and theoretical physics, that energy and mass can be created out of what is essentially nothing. Just wanted to clear that up a bit in your argument because quantum mechanics is super interesting.

[Emilia1320]

Then creating the universe that at least Christianity speaks about. It goes somewhat like that God says "there is the light" and then light appears. Wait.... Energy out of nowhere? No no...

If you have some spare time, read up a little bit on quantum fluctuations and vacuum genesis. What it essentially boils down to is that quantum mechanics does allow for small, brief violations of the law of conservation of energy in which a particle, in this case a "virtual" particle, can pop in and out of existence and interact with matter. And since we have Einstein's famous E = mc^2, mass and energy can be created from each other. Here's a pretty neat article about virtual particles that explains a little bit what they are and why they're important for helping understand the origins of our universe: http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/are-virtual-particles-rea/

I'm not suggesting that this proves that a God exists or doesn't exist, but it does seem possible, shown through experimental and theoretical physics, that energy and mass can be created out of what is essentially nothing. Just wanted to clear that up a bit in your argument because quantum mechanics is super interesting.

Well, that is sure true, it is intersting but I think we agree on that the amount of energy is mostly constant, and such a lot energy suddenly appearing can't propably be explained even with quantum mechanics. :/

And yeah, energy and matter can be converted to each other, but in the bible its said that there wouldnt be matter either in the beginning.

And then what would the God be made of? In my opinion the creation theory has way too many illogicalities.

And yeah, thanks for correcting me and links

Edited January 7, 2015 by Emilia1320

[anisa191919]

Personally I think religion and science can go hand in hand. I know noways most people think they stand on two different grounds and cannot possibly work together but from my personal experience they can.

I find that a lot people have a tendency to dismiss religion all together when it has done so much good in the world. This is not to deny that religion in general has done A LOT of terrible things too, but especially in the past, societies were built upon religion and faith. Religion brought people together and gave them a common purpose as well as bringing messages of love and peace. Many of common morals were taught by early religions (e.i. love your neighbour, don't kill, don't steal, be truthful etc.) The whole purpose of religion is to create unity, and in todays world its kinda not doing that So i can definitely understand why so many people just don't want to have anything to do with religion. 

Presently a lot of religious practices and beliefs can seem silly or illogical, but in the past people didn't have the background knowledge and understanding to comprehend the scientific principles behind things and a few thousand years ago it was easier to just explain say, creation occurred by humans 'coming into being' within a matter of days instead of the whole evolutionary process. 

I know a lot of religious people do take the teachings literally (and I respect that) but personally I think a lot of religious teachings are metaphorical and symbolic and are not trying to lead to ignorance and close mindedness. 

 

I think as humanity develops we evolve both physically, mentally and spiritually in terms of our understanding of science and of faith/religion/God. 

I'd be curious what you guys think of my opinion This is a really interesting topic! And also just saying, hope I'm not offending anyone cause thats not my intention!

Edited January 7, 2015 by anisa191919

[Aras]

 

 

Aras, I think you need to elaborate on all of the points that you mentioned here. If you look at what alefal, Emilia1320, Andy Sebastian, me and many other comments from other people in this thread http://www.ibsurvival.com/topic/21694-why-dont-you-believe-in-god/ , then you'll see that we have made a pretty strong case against yours. Remember that debate is all about being able to use good examples and reasoning to support your claims; but all you do is to use your emotions to claim something that is not supported by any examples or reasoning at all. So please elaborate more!!!

 

1- Never teaches wrong facts, in fact, it's a duty to pursue knowledge and ask question. Because 'hopfully' they will make you realize how great God 'Allah' is.

2- In fact, I think it's the neo-atheism movements that give a wrong impression of religion telling only one side of the story.

3- Islam is all about peace. Beside many Qur'anic verse, our prophet (pbuh) says: "Allah will not be merciful to those who are not merciful to mankind". The key words are 'merciful' and 'mankind', not only 'Muslims' or 'religious people', but merciful to 'mankind'. 

 

P.S. 1- If you want to know the role of Islam and Muslims in science, please do a google search. 

2- I'm a Muslim who admires science, I mean, I just LOVE Physics and Maths!

 

1. "Never teaches wrong facts? uhmm... I doubt it. What about the claim that human is made of clay? what about the claim that God created Earth in 6 days? All of these go against the true facts of science (especially evolution). I think on this point, Emilia1320 & alefal, in the other thread, have both given pretty strong arguments against your claim here

 

2. Religion is the one that tells only one side of the story, because it claims everything in the absolutist way. Science, on the other hand, does not. In fact, within science itself, there can be many different theories; and the one that correlates best with empirical evidence is picked to become part of the hard science

 

3. "Islam is all about peace". This point is very controversial. Take a look at this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quran_and_violence . As far as i understand, there are many verses in the quran that shows violence against non-believers.

 

4. Islam (as a religion) had no role whatsoever to the progress of science. Science has been progressing alone because it has self-correcting mechanism. Now this doesn't mean that there are no scientists that are Muslims. In fact, Muslims have had many contributions to science. However, their contributions are not based on their faiths, but based on their actual conducts of the scientific method. This is similar to the fact that even though Newton was the person of faith, but he made lots of contribution to physics simply because his contributions to physics were not based on his faith

 

5. To be honest, I don't care about the fact that you're a Muslim and you're interested in maths and physics. This is because it has nothing whatsoever about this debate. For me, the debate is always about which knowledge is right and which knowledge is wrong. And it's clear that the knowledge provided by rationality is more reliable compared to knowledge provided by religion, as you've probably known from TOK

 

Peace

To your points:

1-Yes, Allah created us from clay, but this doesn't mean we're being created of clay. Qur'an dosn't say 'days' as 24 hours, it says "sita ayam', ayam mean 'period of time' not 24 hours, we humans decided the units and quantities. (That's the problem, you(atheist) have a poor understating of the thing you're opposing.)

Evolution: Islam does not refuse evolution as a process of development, but it does refuse the beginning of species the way evolution suggests. Allah is aware of everything happening. He is the "Creator" and the "Evolver".  Allah says: "Verily in the heavens and the earth are signs for those who believe. And in the creation of yourselves, and the fact that animals are scattered (through the earth), are signs for those of assured faith. And in the alternation of night and day, and that fact that Allah sends down sustenance from the sky, and revives therewith the earth after its death, and in the change of the winds, are signs for those who are wise" (45:3-5).

 

2- It's because it IS the absolute way. second, it's because science and religion are different! You don't do experiment in religion the way you do in science. (Stop using scientific term for religion for God's sake).

 

3- "If one amongst the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of Allah; and then escort him to where he can be secure. That is because they are men without knowledge" you call this violence?  There're circumstance when you need to be violent. You yourself, if someone attacks your home, tr to hurt your family, would you sit and watch?  (well maybe, because science didn't  think about that)

 

4-Once again, you closing your eyes and attacking. sorry to use these words, but please you have a wonderful brain, use it. The purity of Islam drove those Muslim scientists, again, to praise the greatness of Allah. not to use it against Him.

 

5- I don't need you or anyone to care actually. The point was to make you see that there're religious people who admire science and evidence. (you missed that point either). I personally don't debate to "win", I'll state the facts and leave you with them to decide.  As Islam has taught me, I'll only guide.

 

Peace

I think here is actually the point. I think the problem is on religions overally, but now let's take Christiniaty and Islam's creation myth into consideration. You say we were created out of clay. Well, I can't go back and see if that is true or not but we can investigate clay, and the human being. Well, the clay is mostly inorganic compounds, while there is maybe some quantities of carbonic acids in some cases it's certainly not enough to form humans. Plus, for amino acids there would have to be nitrogen. Now, I can't tell if clay now is the same than it was back then but again, I don't have to. Human being didn't just become from monkey a human; process was very very slow. And it all, according the most accurate evidence I have, started on the seas.

Then creating the universe that at least Christianity speaks about. It goes somewhat like that God says "there is the light" and then light appears. Wait.... Energy out of nowhere? No no...

 

As I mentioned, Allah created us from clay, but it does NOT mean we're being created of clay NOW. He's the Creator and the Evolver.

 

The energy issue; If you were to tell people about the Internet or smart phones 100-150  years ago, they'd think that you were an idiot or something. (I don't mean in any way to use such words to describe you here). The point is, evolution being a fact, or that you can't have energy 'out of nowhere' don't disprove the existence of Allah, in fact, they can be used to describing the power of Him. However, with us evolving and science developing, soon we might be able to explain those 'No no...' issues.

 

P.S. School starts tomorrow and I need to finish my Physics and Chemistry IAs, not mentioning ToK presentation & essay. So I can't follow this thread any longer.

I wish you a peaceful life. 

[Emilia1320]

Personally I think religion and science can go hand in hand. I know noways most people think they stand on two different grounds and cannot possibly work together but from my personal experience they can.

I find that a lot people have a tendency to dismiss religion all together when it has done so much good in the world. This is not to deny that religion in general has done A LOT of terrible things too, but especially in the past, societies were built upon religion and faith. Religion brought people together and gave them a common purpose as well as bringing messages of love and peace. Many of common morals were taught by early religions (e.i. love your neighbour, don't kill, don't steal, be truthful etc.) The whole purpose of religion is to create unity, and in todays world its kinda not doing that So i can definitely understand why so many people just don't want to have anything to do with religion. 

Presently a lot of religious practices and beliefs can seem silly or illogical, but in the past people didn't have the background knowledge and understanding to comprehend the scientific principles behind things and a few thousand years ago it was easier to just explain say, creation occurred by humans 'coming into being' within a matter of days instead of the whole evolutionary process. 

I know a lot of religious people do take the teachings literally (and I respect that) but personally I think a lot of religious teachings are metaphorical and symbolic and are not trying to lead to ignorance and close mindedness. 

 

I think as humanity develops we evolve both physically, mentally and spiritually in terms of our understanding of science and of faith/religion/God. 

I'd be curious what you guys think of my opinion This is a really interesting topic! And also just saying, hope I'm not offending anyone cause thats not my intention!

I think this is very good point on this, and furthermore altough I deny existence of any kind of deities as long as I don't have evidence supporting them, I can't deny that religions have had an effect on our society. In my opinion they have caused more bad than good thou. From Middle Ages Christianity has opposed science, and they aren't exaclty known for supporting science these days either. Where other religions might have a different view on that, many children are still denied education, based on religious beliefs.

And I think I know why. The science and education threaten religions, because they offer more accurate knowledge. Science has something to show people why are they making theories they do. That's why some people go as far as slaughtering children to deny them education. Of course this example is very extreme but it shows what religions can do at the worst,

[Sandwich]

I think the idea of religion "versus" science is something entirely dreamed up by religious people. There is no versus in this. Science is not AGAINST religion, science is factual information about the world around us. Religion is AGAINST science in some cases because there is a disparity between what the religious texts say versus what we factually have found to be the case. So you either have to say the scientific facts are wrong, or that part of your religion is wrong. Most people get around this by just branding certain things as allegorical.

 

The important thing here is that science is not a view point, it's just how things are - a set of observations of the world and some rules and theories derived from those observations, subject to those observations remaining the same. It can't be against anything. Plenty of religious people don't use it as an excuse to ignore science, and many even pursue science. Other religious types like to think that because theirs is a subjective thing being challenged, they can turn science into a subjective thing as well and set religion up as equal to it. It's like comparing chickens and pears and asking which is the nicer fruit, it's a category mistake. It's a somewhat perverse tactic on the part of the religious, as it reverse validates religious beliefs as if they were comparable.

 

On the other side, much of the scientific community is scornful of religion because it is a central tenet of science that you discard theories and ideas which actively don't fit with available evidence, and pursuing religion requires disposing of that fundamental principle - either by allowing your beliefs to become progressively more allegorical than factual or just by ignoring what you see before you. Even maintaining both at once (the religious scientist) requires a level of idea compromise that is incomprehensible to many, but obviously possible.