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Does God exist?

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it probably started out as a thing for neediness, but religion has been misused throughout hte world.

it has created exclusiveness, and brought differnt people up against different ppl.

religion has created many problems for mankind as a whole , so the concept of God never whould have occred in history (even if there is a divine force out there)

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I fully one hundred percent agree

I dunno if any of you have read Richard Dawkin's The God Delusion?

Well ok yeah he is a bit of a ******, but he does make some interesting points.

While we cannot prove or disprove the existence of god or a higher being, or creator, we can work with probabilities.

I think the probability of a divine being, that came into being with no possible explainable way, that decided to create this world, a world so complex as ours, is completely like one chance in 110324987240192834709218374920831749328740912837432158736241982734691283746

Obviously you can tell that i'm 100% atheist, and have been since I was about 6.

I don't find that not believing in God leaves me without hope, or makes me act in any different ways.

To me the existence of God is in the end not a very important question for me. If he exists, fine, whatever, it doesn't change my life at all.

If we take it a step further and look at god in the context of religion it becomes a little different, but still I believe that when we die, we die and its all over. Strangely this does not worry me, only comforts me.......maybe this sounds a little emo, but the idea of there being an eternal life after this actually makes me despair. The only thing keeping me doing anything I do, including living, is knowing that one day it will end.

But in answer to the forum question, the likelihood of god existing is very low, for me anyway,

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However you look at it, the notion of God existing or not is completely up to you. Its like a dream - while you experience it, you know it exists. When you wake up from it, you can either choose to dismiss it, or choose to learn from it (for anyone not sure what I mean, look up the works of Sigmund Freud [concerning dreaming]. A great example can be found here: http://www.wsu.edu:8001/~wldciv/world_civ_...er_2/freud.html ). It may seem like I went off on a tangent there, but I think there is a real connection.

Peace

Edited by basskidd

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Human logic conforms with neither religion nor science. In general, cause and effect is the backbone of our logic. We perceive everything that happens to have a cause.

If you are on the side of science, then I ask you - what happened before the Big Bang? And if you can answer that - what happened before that?

If you are on the side of relgiion, then I ask you - what gave rise to God? And if you can answer that - what gave rise to that which gave rise to God?

Neither arguments make sense IMO. I think we, as humans, just have to accept the fact that there are certain things beyond the scope of our comprehension.

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For all those people who insist on saying that the universe is simply too complex for it to have existed out of nothing, if again we look at probabilities, there IS a minute chance, 1 in again many numbers, that everything could work out to how we know it today. Seeing as there is probably around that many planets in the universe, and we are the only ones contain life, that suggests that it is entirely plausible that this happened by chance.

On another note even though the probability of all this happening by itself is slim, the probability of a creature, who again came about by chance with no creator, who has a complex enough mind to create all of this complex life on earth, is less than that of the creation of the earth by itself.

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Great thread I have to say~~

But in all seriousness, I have to agree with Cubz. Although I myself am not athiest, at times I seem to question whether god is really real.

I go to church every Sunday though, my parents are Christians.

I agree most with Greather Than infinity

Either way you look at this argument, there are questions that cannot truly be answered by fact.

Until the day comes when we truly understand the events that preceeded our existance, we can never come to a conclusion..

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I dunno if any of you have read Richard Dawkin's The God Delusion?

I have. I do not quite agree with Dawkins, but he does, occasionally, have interesting points.

While we cannot prove or disprove the existence of god or a higher being, or creator, we can work with probabilities.

I think that pulling a completely random number out of nowhere and presenting that as the "probability that God exists" is not a proof of any kind.

Obviously you can tell that i'm 100% atheist, and have been since I was about 6.

With all respect to You and atheists everywhere, claims like that make me a lot less eager to take people seriously. I don't think that anybody is ever "100%" anything. Even if absolute certainty exists, it's definitely not, in my opinion, an easy thing to achieve, something to casually toss into your speech like that.

I personally feel that there is some sort of a higher force everywhere, but since it's just a feeling (an opinion) I'm trying not to act in a definite or arrogant way about it. I quite highly appreciate the set of believes known as "buddhism", but I wouldn't say that I'm "100% buddhist". Closer to "18% buddhist, 15% hindu, 14% christian, 12% atheist" etc..

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It seems that I would be able to state that we do not know whether or not God exists without offending or seriously disagreeing with anyone, so I'll make that statement. If we don't know, then we have the ability to look at effects (such as our own existence) and attempt to tie them to a cause. This may be what we do, but in itself it is always and will always be flawed logic. This is because the same event may have different potential causes. Looking at intelligent design and evolution, it is apparent that both sides cite the same evidence. Materialists tend to make the argument that if something is possible without a god, there is no god. This is as ridiculous as presenting a hard problem that a person cannot solve, and then using their inability to solve it as evidence that god exists. Both of these things are precisely what these debates tend to become, which isn't too bad, it's a way of forming opinions.

So, to go back to the point, I would state that since we cannot prove the existence of god as true or false, to state that you have knowledge that permits you to make that claim would be a lie. Essentially, it is wrong to conceive that you know whether or not god exists. That would be wrong in an absolute sense, essentially, as wrong as you can be. To show this, if knowledge is justified true belief, then belief that is true but not justified is not knowledge, and belief that is not justified nor true is not knowledge. Therefore, since no true justification for the existence of god exists, to think that one has knowledge of the affirmative or negative is to think that something is knowledge when it is not knowledge. Thus, we show that this is wrong by purely rational thinking, and is therefore wrong in a completely non-relative sense. Now, since this all sounds like a load of uselessness, consider that claiming to know whether or not god exists, as many fundamentalist atheists and theists do, would be lying. If we agree that lies are in general immoral, then teaching someone that god does or does not exist would then be immoral. Interesting thought, there, but that would be a digression.

Anyways, my own opinion is that since I perceive myself to be conscious, then I would assume that this is true, though the argument that my own free will is a delusion must be considered. I tend to refute this argument on the basis that if there is nothing to experience a delusion, then the delusion does not exist, though this is far from a complete argument against materialism. Since I find myself believing that consciousness exists regardless of the material universe (since the material universe has no place for it) and that humans are the only known vessel for consciousness, then if there is a purpose for life it is so that life can experience consciousness. If that would be true, then I would state that belief in intelligent design would be belief that our own intelligence is capable of designing us. Now, I am strongly in favor of the theory of evolution, but the theory of evolution relies on some principles. Firstly, that life exists in a given form, meaning that life had to be formed somehow. No definite answer there. Secondly, that the fact that the weakest permutations die out leads to a constantly progressive evolution, that's fine by me. Thirdly, though, is the premise that somehow, these creatures known as humans started to do things that did not directly influence the survival and propagation of their own race. If you take a peek at Mazlow's hierarchy of needs, you will see that for some reason all of these motivations appear that appear to have popped in to existence randomly. Essentially, my one point is that since evolution does not adequately explain the behavior of humans, and since I perceive a consciousness within myself that appears to be prevalent among others, humans are as they are because they are conscious, since consciousness appears to be the fundamental difference between the motivations of humans and animals.

Now, the ramifications of that resolution (which I am not claiming to be perfect in any way, or absolutely true, or whatever) would be the belief that consciousness exists beyond humans, and that consciousness most likely played a role in some way in determining the vessel in which it resides. If that is the case, then the belief in a greater conscious entity that may or may not have had a hand in our own creation is not far fetched or ridiculous.

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"Does God exist?" is a bit of a closed question, and unanswerable by any means anyway. A person's own religion or faith is theirs to believe in, and if they believe in God, then yes, God exists for them. If you don't believe that God exists, then no, God doesn't exist for you.

Has anyone read The Quantum Gods by Jeff Love? My own personal faith and beliefs work along similar lines to what he introduces in The Quatum Gods. We are all responsible for our own existence and our own futures. Our subconscious is 'God.' Our outward personalities and actions are created by this God. People involved with psychoactive drugs, in particular LSD, psilocybin and mescaline often talk about the 'collective subconscious,' the amalgamation of our own personal 'Gods' into one force. I also believe in the fractal theory or the idea popularized by The Butterfly Effect, that a pattern can be seen in events that have occurred throughout history. For example, the British in WWI used a method of encoding and data transfer between listening posts which is stunningly alike to the data transfer coding and protocols of our modern internet. Everything happens for a reason, and we dictate those reasons.

This is my own personal opinion. Challenge it, and I will explain more precisely my beliefs, but I will not defend it nor encourage you to think the same as I do. Religion, faith and beliefs are so personal that I think it almost a shame that so many people have biases about people of certain religions. Christianity is one of the most interesting religions to explore, perhaps mainly because it is so widespread, and it is ignorant to assume that all Christians believe the same things. They may have similar base theories, but they all derive their own interpretations of these theories to form their own beliefs. "Does God exist?" may sound like a nice question to pose, but it is pointless: you're not going to come to a conclusive answer.

Edited by Delysid

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I don't believe in God, but who am I to say if "He" exists or not? My answer would have to be: "I think God does not exist" rather than stating that God simply doesn't. If God existed, I don't see a reason for him to leave so many people in poverty, and bless others.

I live in the Philippines, and the poverty here is awful... Whenever I drive through a squatter village here, it reminds me of my lack of belief in God. He can't exist. That's just my personal take on it though, I know there are loads of arguments against... the argument that he shouldn't let so many people suffer.

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Seeing is beleiving is a statement/quote that is seriously outdated and quite frankly, flimsy.

is there a country in the world that you haven't been to? I dontnow you well but lets say, switzerland. If you've never been to it how do you know it exsists. word of mouth maybe, photos, souvenires from frineds who'v been there .

these things could all be faked so you know it exsists beause you have faith that it exsists.

If I were to take the statement as true I woul say that sure, I can see God's amazing creations all around me which were created, are being sustained and are beautiful for just because he wanted thme to be.

so many things in this world prove God. Give me one statement that you think disproves Gopd and I will show you that its' worng.

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GOD : 'Generator Operator Destructor'

There is nearly no evidence to support the existence of GOD. But some people really claim that GOD exists, by telling that they have seen him. Unless there is strong evidence to support the statement, you cannot consider it as 'truth'. But still mass majority of people live with the blind belief that GOD exists. What do you think, does GOD exist? Or humans just do not want to accept the truth due to 'neediness', by thinking if i pray to GOD, then i will get the thing i want.

This is a very debated topic and the comment that you have made that it is "blind" is wrong. I think GOd does exist....ur sayin tha we r supposed to believe that the earth was formed with a blast based on the big bang theory? i think thats really stupid

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GOD : 'Generator Operator Destructor'

There is nearly no evidence to support the existence of GOD. But some people really claim that GOD exists, by telling that they have seen him. Unless there is strong evidence to support the statement, you cannot consider it as 'truth'. But still mass majority of people live with the blind belief that GOD exists. What do you think, does GOD exist? Or humans just do not want to accept the truth due to 'neediness', by thinking if i pray to GOD, then i will get the thing i want.

Take the Theory of Knowledge class...it will give you both sides of the topic

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My mom thinks he does, was just thinking last night we all have personalities and we are all so unique this couldnt of just happened by chance.

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Having been born and raised a Muslim myself, I'd say that those "scientific" verses have been hugely exaggerated. Vague, open-ended language and modern day knowledge together can easily put more significance to text than it deserves, and I don't think you need to have any modern scientific background to notice that something happens inside a woman's womb when semen enters the vagina, and that whatever lives in there gets bigger and bigger, or that there are stars in the sky, or that the world is made up of many small things.

To assume that the people of those times were not aware of these basic natural observations involves a fundamental arrogance that results from a lack of historical understanding.

Edited by Mr. Shiver

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so many things in this world prove God. Give me one statement that you think disproves Gopd and I will show you that its' worng.

Such as?

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Well, Mr. Shiver I said 'detailed' which doesn't mean 'Vague, open-ended language and modern day knowledge together can easily put more significance to text than it deserves'.

My whole point was that they're not detailed. I'm not sure why you're taking this personally.

It actually has an accurate description of the womb, for example the approxiamate size and shape of the fetus at specific periods.

As I've said already, I don't think you need to have any modern scientific background to notice that something happens inside a woman's womb when semen enters the vagina, and that whatever lives in there gets bigger and bigger.

Now, let's take a look at the verses you're talking about, 39:6 and 3:12-16. First of all, "three veils of darkness" means nothing in relation to modern science, and sounds more like a poetic description of something unknown and mysterious which merely draws attention to the mystery of it. My feeling is that there's no reason not to consider the possibility that by that point in time a few people had used some common sense to decide that the living thing is probably "hanging" from somewhere inside the womb, or else it would fall out. As it grows, it must reach and surpass a point at which it becomes "bite-size". Then they would have looked at their own bodies and noticed that their bones are underneath their flesh, and figured that if the living thing is growing, the "bones" probably come first and then the "flesh". Because, they probably postulated, things grow from the inside out, not the outside in. I'm still not quite sure why you need advanced knowledge of embryology to map out this process.

It has descriptions of the mountains structure in the earth's crust

"When you look at the mountains, you think they are standing still. But they are moving, like the clouds."

There is nothing in this verse to suggest that it contains any miraculous geological knowledge. It seems more like another fanciful poetic statement to me, where an apparently inanimate object is personified to capture the imagination of the reader. It's scientific accuracy could easily just be mere coincidence.

"And the mountains as pegs."

Well yeah, to a 7th century Arab, a large mountain in a comparatively enormous and unknown world could easily be characterized as a peg, especially since mountains often happen to be pointy at the top. Again, this verse doesn't suggest any knowledge of tectonic plates and continental drift. It does, however, tie in well with the Islamic principle of humility.

and states clearly that the water of the the different oceans (pacific and atlantic) do not mix

I'm sure that by the time that verse appeared, the Arabs had realized from their Yemeni neighbours that sea water doesn't taste so good. In fact, it happens to taste kinda...salty. "Yuck! But that other fresh water tastes so much sweeter. Hmmm, how could this water taste so sweet and other water taste so salty? Maybe there's a barrier in between so that the good water and bad water don't mix!"

The Arabs weren't idiots. Their intellectual prowess in subsequent centuries can attest to this. It's entirely possible that the Qur'an's constant encouragement to better understand the world around them contributed a lot to their success. But it didn't come from nowhere. Even in times of great ignorance, communal knowledge is still preserved through generations of oral tradition and scripture, because we human beings have a certain curiosity about us which never really goes away.

And don't even try to throw that cosmological mysticism at me. It means absolutely nothing in relation to studies in astrophysics.

I suggest you do a little more reading and research instead of telling me that i'm arrogant.

It's not you I was calling arrogant. What I was calling arrogant is the entire idea that 1400 years ago people weren't able to think for themselves, and that's the assumption that has to be made in order to consider a few verses from an allegedly divine text to be "scientific miracles".

Here's a link so that you may get rid of some of your own ignorance.

http://www.islamicity.com/Science/iqs/sld003.htm

You can go ahead and believe that God exists (I'm pretty sure I still do too, albeit with many reservations), but this is not the evidence that would support that notion. And again, I say this having myself been born and raised a Muslim.

One last bit of advice for you: avoid calling people you've never met before ignorant, because that itself is an ignorant thing to do. Oh, and biased sources with confirmation bias from a few "expert opinions" does not justify anything.

Edited by Mr. Shiver

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its abit stupid not believiing in a supreme power, as any scientific knoweledge of biology, chemistry or physics would force you to believe in it.

firstly MATTER CANT BE CREATED OR DESTROYED. so how did the big bang happen, where did the matter come from. from a supreme power who gave a part of it. the bible isnt a histroical book, you have to read betweeen the lines, you arent spoon fed. so it says he said let there be light-this could be the big bang as there was naturally alot of light.

cell theory. CELLS CAN ONLY BE MADE THROUGH PRE-EXISTING CELLS. how the hell did any cells form then. there must be something out there. cant have all been chance could it

???

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so how did the big bang happen, where did the matter come from.

Until you realize that there is no answer to this question, you will continue to erroneously believe there is only one.

how the hell did any cells form then. there must be something out there. cant have all been chance could it

???

Abiogenesis, in theory, does not require the hand of a creator.

Edited by Mr. Shiver

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Before I begin, I gotta apologize, since I'm not much of a sugarcoating type of person...

here we go.

My personal belief is that God does not exist, or that if he does, his existence is irrelevant to our own, or at the very least our daily life. Many ask questions such as "well if there's no god, then how was there a big bang?" I say it's energy. Energy was here perpetually. Energy caused the big bang. Now whether I'm right or wrong, or that what I say is contradictory to the physics law, that I don't know. If I'm wrong let me know.

Most of the pro-god arguments are "the world is so unique/diverse. God must be it" It frankly sounds like to me "I don't get it, so God must've done it." Almost all of the argument is the whole "god of the gaps" theory.

For the whole "it's your belief/my belief" people... Thanks, but I'd rather not believe and duke off with a God than to get the proverbial bum's rush cuz I ate bloody pork on sundays. I mean what the hell is that about? Most of the more universal morals just make bloody sense. Then there's the whole bible/torah/koran or whatever book you use, what's with the really ridiculous laws that you gotta keep? Sounds like to me God is some low-self esteem dude who's really got nothing better to do than meddle with peoples' lives. If he's there. I mean if there's a god and I meet him in the ol' afterlife, I'd say he deserves a good talking to. If he's anything like what people say, he'd understand. If not, hey I'm gone for good. Whatever.

And what's so bad about being a bloody result of an accident? isn't the whole idea of some all powerful vague god with so many contradictory rules so that either way you're getting it in the ass a lot worse?

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Nah, he doesn't.

Just some mankind imagination to make themselves feel safer.

We had this debate in TOK and one interesting point we came accross was this:

A student said well, there's no certainty that god exists or doesn't but he just chooses to believe because, if there is indeed a God out there, believing in him would do him good, so he wouldn't have to go to hell afterwards. If it turns out there isn't, fine then, he'll just die. Big deal.

He has a point there but I disagree... I used to believe in God. But not for the afterlife part. I prayed to him when I wanted something. Sometimes it happened, sometimes it didn't. I think it's fine if one believes in God, to give themselves hope and make themselves feel good abt themselves. But God shouldn't be seen as a threat. There are people in this world who fear God, thinking that if they don't do what God says, they'll burn in hell forever or sth. That's sad. Because I don't believe in Gods who have issues with petty human problems. If there is a being really so divine, so kind and forgiving he wouldn't be asking Humans to obey this and that while on Earth, or suffer the consequences. I wouldn't even want to believe in a discriminating God. It would be a waste of my time.

To me, Gods will never exist. And if I find out that they do and are as dammned as humans thought them to be, then well, unlucky for me.

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isn't that hypothesis tantamount to Pascal's Wager?

That little thing can be broken down to this.

If god exists:

If you believe the wrong god, you're screwed. (so that's one of literally 10000s)

If you don't do exactly as the holy scripture says, even if it happens to be the right god, you're screwed.

If god does not exist:

You basically wasted your life doing some strange pointless rituals and self-imposed prohibitions

Frankly I don't know what's worse.

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It's always amusing to see people try and use reason to justify religion. Anyone heard of Anselm? The guy basically defined God as "nothing superior to him can be conceived" and said that because the definition of God is correct, and because things that exist are superior to things that don't exist, God must exist because otherwise the definition can't be correct, and it is correct so he can't not exist. And this is supposed to be the strongest a priori argument for God.

Edited by Mr. Shiver

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Such as?

Yeap. So many things in this world prove the existence of God. Such as... (it is uncountable to write it all and this space is just too little)

For example, just take a look at your self. Focus on your face. Look further into your eyes. Look deeper into your black eye (if it is black). What do you see next? Of course you cannot see any further.

But...

...through learning, we know that inside our eyes we have many tiny things that we cannot see with our naked eyes. We know about the retina that allows us to see, the blind spot that blocked our view, the sclera, the optic nerve and many more that works together and enables us to see this world. To learn, to study, to do IB and many more things in the world.

Such a great creation do not exist by itself. There must be a power that make all this thing happen. And it is the power of God for He is the Almighty.

It doesn't mean that the fact we cannot see God is the reason why God does not exist.

There are many other things that cannot be seen but the fact is, it is exist. Can you see the wind? But how do you know that it is exist? Because you can feel the coldness of the wind. In the context of God. How do we feel the existence of God? Well, It is not that easy but it is not that hard either. It depends on the way we think. Being a big grown up person by now, we should have the feel that all the things that happen to us is made possible because of God.

Therefore, there is no doubt that God does exist and always watch us all the time.

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