Does God exist?

[Schrodinger's CAS]

I also do believe that God is not represented accurately in the Bible as he helps his people kill others in wars which goes against his commandments but then I do believe that He probably exists because some extraordinary things have happened in my life and well someone has to be responsible for that.

I had once thought that luck is the one god. I was once almost hit by a motorcycle when stepping out of a bus. I told my mom I was lucky, she told me I was blessed by god. Maybe it was luck that allowed all the variables to come together and set off the big bang. God doesn't have to be a physical being.

[CriCri]

The thing is do you have to see to believe?

I mean we all believe gravity is a real thing, but do you physically see gravity pulling an object towards the ground?

We all believe that atoms are made of a nucleus and that electrons orbit around it in certain ways. But do we see it? No

[Schrodinger's CAS]

The thing is do you have to see to believe?

I mean we all believe gravity is a real thing, but do you physically see gravity pulling an object towards the ground?

 

But then, if I throw an apple into the air, it comes back down. But if I lie to someone, I don't get struck by Zeus' lightning bolt. Gravity is a result from scientific observations and experiments, and it can be "seen" functioning. Although you're right, people tend to only believe what they physically see, when in fact there are many theories which we think are facts even though we can't physically see them.

[OMGIBISFUN]

I mean we all believe gravity is a real thing, but do you physically see gravity pulling an object towards the ground?

 

Drop any item, gravity sure does pull it towards the ground. (Just don't experiment with your phone, the screen might not like that )

 

As far as I'm concerned, the burden of proof for a 'God's' existence remains with those proposing such an idea. 

 

Sure, a lot of incomprehensible things exist and happen on this Earth. In my opinion, attributing phenomena beyond our current cognitive abilities as 'god' is a hasty generalisation. Not long ago, phenomena such as the sun coming up every morning, rain, thunder etc. were all considered to be initiated by gods. I'm not saying all natural phenomena and complex structures and features of the universe will one day be conclusively explained, but keeping in mind the context of human history and progress is important in objectivity. 

 

My problem with the concept of god is the indoctrination by institutionalised religions, and the subsequent politicising they do based on their leverage within society. Any individual holding a deep belief as such is respectable, what I despise is judgemental opinions based on religious beliefs regarding morals, social norms and behaviour of others. 

 

Like Richard Dawkins, I don't claim to have an authoritative stance. There may be a god, there may not be one. Until there is conclusive empirical evidence to suggest such, I will remain an agnostic atheist. Furthermore, the idea of a god being a humanlike being on a supernatural scales seems ridiculous to me, as iterated eloquently above already. 

[CriCri]

 

I mean we all believe gravity is a real thing, but do you physically see gravity pulling an object towards the ground?

 

Drop any item, gravity sure does pull it towards the ground. (Just don't experiment with your phone, the screen might not like that )

 

As far as I'm concerned, the burden of proof for a 'God's' existence remains with those proposing such an idea. 

 

Sure, a lot of incomprehensible things exist and happen on this Earth. In my opinion, attributing phenomena beyond our current cognitive abilities as 'god' is a hasty generalisation. Not long ago, phenomena such as the sun coming up every morning, rain, thunder etc. were all considered to be initiated by gods. I'm not saying all natural phenomena and complex structures and features of the universe will one day be conclusively explained, but keeping in mind the context of human history and progress is important in objectivity. 

 

My problem with the concept of god is the indoctrination by institutionalised religions, and the subsequent politicising they do based on their leverage within society. Any individual holding a deep belief as such is respectable, what I despise is judgemental opinions based on religious beliefs regarding morals, social norms and behaviour of others. 

 

Like Richard Dawkins, I don't claim to have an authoritative stance. There may be a god, there may not be one. Until there is conclusive empirical evidence to suggest such, I will remain an agnostic atheist. Furthermore, the idea of a god being a humanlike being on a supernatural scales seems ridiculous to me, as iterated eloquently above already. 

 

 

Its just such a complicated debate I mean God's existence hasn't been proven nor disproven.

As for the indoctrination part, I think it is really up to the individual. I mean we all have the capacity to allow someone to rule over us or tell us what to do (for example in the case of a dictatorship, people have stood up) So i think that the fact people say that religion indoctrinates people is only accurate to a certain degree. We all have the ability to chose for ourselves.

Could you please explain the part about the judgemental opinions? 

Ps I admire your precise choice of words! (Had to look up a few of them, thankfully I have free time to do so now!)

[OMGIBISFUN]

Its just such a complicated debate I mean God's existence hasn't been proven nor disproven.

As for the indoctrination part, I think it is really up to the individual. I mean we all have the capacity to allow someone to rule over us or tell us what to do (for example in the case of a dictatorship, people have stood up) So i think that the fact people say that religion indoctrinates people is only accurate to a certain degree. We all have the ability to chose for ourselves.

Could you please explain the part about the judgemental opinions? 

Ps I admire your precise choice of words! (Had to look up a few of them, thankfully I have free time to do so now!)

 

 

The debate is a complicated one, I think it was simple to solve there wouldn't be a 21 page debate thread contributed to by brilliant IB students.

 

When it comes to god's existence, you're right. It hasn't been proven, nor disproven. I think one of the main conflicts when it comes to this debate is the figurative 'arena' on which it is discussed, and the pertinent standards by which arguments on both sides and the eventual conclusion are judged. This may seem slightly abstract, but it makes sense. I think it is reasonable to say that a significant portion of criticism and scrutiny of god's existence originates from the scientific community, in which empirical evidence, peer review and repeatability are essential in establishing theories and facts. They have the upper hand in this regard, there is no empirical, unbiased evidence for the existence of god. 

 

Those arguing for the existence of god however, often have a very different approach. In essence it is an argument from faith, which by its very dictionary definition is the belief in something without evidence. They often see proof of the existence of god as something personal, mental, rooted in their subjective view and wonderment of the world around them. I think that's fine, but such an argument or approach does not withstand the standards utilised in the scientific community. Thus I think the two sides of this debate will never reach consensus. 

 

What you say about indoctrination and the freedom of self determination, I agree with you on strictly technical terms. In most free countries that do not have theocratic governments, dissent from religious beliefs is perfectly legal and widespread in most modern countries. This is short-sighted however, as the legality of dissent and scepticism is insignificant in the power of the grip religions indirectly have on the population. Often what prevents people from openly announcing their scepticism or agnosticism is the social pressure often placed on them by their very family members who belong to the faith they now disagree with. Sure, many parents and families may find this insignificant, but believe you me, it is a struggle for many people as well. Dissent from a religion with prevalence in the community you belong to, can lead to distancing yourself from your family, friends and the society in general. It can be so alienating, many people daren't be honest about their views, even if they are legally allowed to do so. Imagine the situation yourself, you were a convinced atheist with deeply religious parents, knowing if you were honest about it, you faced a very real risk of causing a deep rift in the relationships with those nearest to you, or in a worst case scenario, being shunned from your home. I bet in such a situation, your legal right to believe or not believe in anything is not very consoling. Also, you don't need to do much research to see how social attitudes are towards atheists, even in modern democracies. (Look at the U.S for example, no way could an openly atheist/agnostic presidential candidate ever be elected due to the negative views and general distrust towards atheism there.) Even more generally, 0/435 house representatives and 1/100 senators are openly atheist. Think about that.

 

And finally regarding judgemental opinions. Historically and still today, many religions and holy texts at the centre of those religions, provide rules and guidelines to life. (Think 10 commandments for example). Often such 'rules' are followed with threats and punishments for those breaking them. Now I can imagine historically these were seen as of importance as a restrictive force in society, as a source of morality to a more primitive people. Parallel to this however, people dissenting or breaking the rules of the religions have faced persecution and hostility. (Think burning witches, killing adulterers etc.) Though perhaps not as violent and hostile (apart from ISIS perhaps), many people still judge the behaviour of others based on underlying social norms which have been influenced by religion historically. Before the abolition of slavery in the U.S, many argued against it based on verses from the bible. (Some still do) Same goes for views on abortion and same sex relationships, and by more extreme believers, seemingly normal things like sex or childbirth before marriage. Claiming this is detached from lives of atheists is reductive, countless politicians often cite religion in voting on legislation regarding social issues. In my opinion, that is extremely biased. 

[ritaalmeida]

I know there is no physical proof that God doesn't exist and there is no argument against that.

But I can feel God and in the hardest times of my life, He has been there for me and He has helped me look at the good side of situations.

Maybe this makes me a bad catholic, but I believe that we are able to interpret God as we may and maybe the way I see Him differs from the way my mother sees Him.

I like to believe that even when you die, what happens to you after that is up to you. Call me a bad christian but I think religion is a lot about spirituality and not just going to church every Sunday. Even the bible is open to different interpretations.

I don't judge people who do not believe in God and I do not judge people who believe in "other Gods". As I said, it's all about your person spirituality and I like to believe there is no right or wrong when it comes to religion.

[Hassan76]

I also do believe that God is not represented accurately in the Bible as he helps his people kill others in wars which goes against his commandments but then I do believe that He probably exists because some extraordinary things have happened in my life and well someone has to be responsible for that.

I had once thought that luck is the one god. I was once almost hit by a motorcycle when stepping out of a bus. I told my mom I was lucky, she told me I was blessed by god. Maybe it was luck that allowed all the variables to come together and set off the big bang. God doesn't have to be a physical being.

So logically luck probably will gather or cause a reverse Big Bang, since it is luck, right ?

[Hassan76]

I know there is no physical proof that God doesn't exist and there is no argument against that.

But I can feel God and in the hardest times of my life, He has been there for me and He has helped me look at the good side of situations.

Maybe this makes me a bad catholic, but I believe that we are able to interpret God as we may and maybe the way I see Him differs from the way my mother sees Him.

I like to believe that even when you die, what happens to you after that is up to you. Call me a bad christian but I think religion is a lot about spirituality and not just going to church every Sunday. Even the bible is open to different interpretations.

I don't judge people who do not believe in God and I do not judge people who believe in "other Gods". As I said, it's all about your person spirituality and I like to believe there is no right or wrong when it comes to religion.

I am not Christian, but, take care, and tell me if I am wrong different interpretations doesn't mean there is lack of reliability, or anything, because some people(Christians) believe that they are the words of GOD.

[Blackcurrant]

The God of Small Things ... I think you've got the answer there.

 

Otherwise, as long as you believe in God, then God exists in whatever shape or form you wish. 

 

It is hard to imagine that there is even a debate about this. 

[THEliberator]

I'm an atheist. Therefore, I'll just say one thing: The answer to GOD's existence depends on what you mean by GOD.

[samuelmwase]

I have to agree with Mr. Shiver. After studying nerves, blood, biology and chemistry in detail, there is too much to have happened by organised chance (i.e. evolution).

Chemicals arranged to notify pain, even conscience, is just enormous. How a bat's ear works, how we've evolved a prefrontal cortex, things basically useless etc etc have to show some sort of premeditated design.

Believe in God if you want, that is fine.

But leave out the misunderstandings of evolution and the Paley's-watch-esque arguments that no longer have any weight.

Come on, this design nonsense has had its day. Most of the Christians I know are embaressed by this dilution of reasonable thinking wth what is essentially a lack of knowledge about what drives evolution.

[Lily Pop]

I'm a nihilist, so I believe that there is no answer that question within our grasp. We can never know for sure. To me, it is extremely impossible for there to be a supreme creator that reigns over us, but at the same time, it is extremely impossible that there isn't one. 

 

I cannot answer this question, and neither can any of you, but the difference is I will not waste my breathe trying to.

[turtle turtle]

I'm a nihilist, so I believe that there is no answer that question within our grasp. We can never know for sure. To me, it is extremely impossible for there to be a supreme creator that reigns over us, but at the same time, it is extremely impossible that there isn't one. 

 

I cannot answer this question, and neither can any of you, but the difference is I will not waste my breathe trying to.

(Just out of interest) Being a nihilist, what drives you to believe that all the discoveries, innovation, cures, improvements etc... lead to nothing after our lifetime?

[joancarreno]

I don't know.

[ebu]

Although I know this may not sound logical, at times I feel God's presence around me. Especially when I face the small wonders of life, realize something or find courage at hard times. So I do believe (quite strongly) that God exists at that I am guided by God at all times.

[azara]

 

So logically luck probably will gather or cause a reverse Big Bang, since it is luck, right ?

 

 

No, that is the laws of physics and mathematics making that prediction.  Of course, we don't know for sure what will happen, but that is our best prediction.  

 

I often find in this debate that a lot of those on the "God" side tend to refute the answer "we don't know".  Science doesn't know everything.  It doesn't have an answer for everything.  That doesn't make it invalid.  Religion doesn't know everything either: why is there suffering? Why do we die? What happens after we die? Whether or not that makes it invalid is a different question, since it doesn't operate under the same scientific method, which does not claim to answer all of life's philosophical problems.  But that's another debate

[beth-]

I don't know, but I'm leaning towards a no.

"If God is willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then He is not omnipotent. If He able, but not willing? Then He is malevolent. Is He both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? When why call Him God?"

I really like this quote, though. How do religious people justify people who die young? How do religious people justify 5 year olds who get cancer? To learn life lessons? 

Furthermore, even though that's not directly part of the question, I don't really understand how people can be religious, knowing how many religions are out there, what on Earth makes people believe that their religion is the only accurate one? That just confuses me.

However, there are mainly two reasons why I don't believe in God.

a) Mankind created God. There was a time before the concept of Gods existed, meaning that there was a time when the concept of Gods came to existence. Mankind created him. He was invented.

b) It goes against the concept of evolution, something which is highly backed up by science. 

 

However, one truly can't know. There might be, there might not be, but there probably isn't.

[ibstudent321]

No evidence exists for the existence of a God, but if belief in God were to be beneficial to a person that would make it true according to a theory of truth (TOK).

[Guest]

A short true incident might explain certain things...

Once there was a man  who went to the saloon for a hair cut and the barber at the saloon doesn't believes in GOD and was murmuring but the man who went to the barber for a hair cut was a believer of GOD and they got into an argument  the barber shouted saying if GOD is there then why people are poor and helpless, the man(customer) pointed at another man who has got a long beard untrimmed and his dressing showed he is poor. The customer then shouted why should that helpless man have a beard therefore I conclude that there is no barber in this world. The barber was bewildered and exclaimed that right now he did the service {hair cut} to his customer and how come that now he claims there is no barber. Then after a while the barber said if that poor man comes to me then I could have done him some help. then the customer said it is the same way with GOD when you sought to seek him then will he come unto you.

GOD is there according to my perception

People say there is no beginning for the universe

but how?

there must be a starting point

Imagine you are listening to a song without a beginning then how will you find the middle portion of the song?

You can only find it if there is a beginning for the song    

Ultimately it leads to GOD being the creator of the universe and the things that are in it.

Edited January 14, 2016 by Guest