Solaris

Does God exist?

587 posts in this topic
1 hour ago, talalrulez said:

Have you guys decided not to post anymore? :huh::(

come on. At least someone make a comment delivering how they feel about divine command theory...

I will definitely look into it! It's just I moved into uni on the weekend and have been flat out with O week since.  It'll happen :)

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On 2017-02-10 at 11:48 AM, talalrulez said:

So looking at the first option, Jonas stayed alive the whole time, whilst Jesus died.pretty obviously, this one doesn't hold up. So the second choice, which is what you pointed out, is time. So Jesus as a jew believed that the new day on the calendar starts at sunrise, as do we muslims. so he died on friday evening. that's one night for him. Then there's Saturday day. thats one day and one night for him. Then there's Saturday night and now that's 2 nights and 1 day for him. Now on Sunday morning, Mary Magdalene came looking for him,and found that he had already left, and a figure came to her, and asked her what she was doing in the mausoleum, and she says that she looking for Jesus to care for him, ie: she had known he was alive beforehand. so this is 2 nights and 1 day. Despite Jesus assigning himself 6 time periods (3 days and 3 nights) he still fails to meet it, and even in your theory of 3 days and 2 nights (or we can swap it around for sake of argument) he still fails to meet the criteria.

Like I made clear before, "3 days and 3 nights" was an old Jewish expression which meant any time period that touches three days. This time period touched Friday Saturday and Sunday, which is three days, regardless of what time it was. Also, you didn't even respond to my second explanation which is also plausible.

On 2017-02-10 at 11:48 AM, talalrulez said:

Furthermore, Mary's entering of the tomb signifies the fact that she knew that he was alive, perhaps the only one among the believers of Jesus. This is known as the other disciples say themselves that they could only atone for Jesus's death through gossip they heard, meaning that they were not eye witnesses. they had heard people saying this, so they believed it.So when Jesus came to them, they thought they were seeing a ghost of some kind, and he reassured them that he was not in fact a ghost, and to prove so, he let them touch him and he ate in front of them, still not out of the time limit that he provided for himself.

I honestly don't even know where you're going with this. First, Mary Magdalene and the other women didn't know that he was resurrected, and even if the did, who cares? It just shows that they trusted Jesus
. And then you talk about how the disciples only knew about Jesus' death because of gossip? Do you have any evidence for this? Of course Jesus' disciples knew that he would get crucified. And still, who cares?

On 2017-02-10 at 11:48 AM, talalrulez said:

Anyway, we know from Mary's encounter of Jesus that in fact, Jesus was disguised as a gardner, so as to not be found by the Romans and the Jews and be persecuted yet again, meaning that he feared death. Yet, the bible states that every being has only one life, and they shall not be granted any more, until Judgement. That would mean, had Jesus died, he shouldn't have beenafraid of being seen by them, as they would not be able to touch him, coz according to the bible, hes kind of a zombie

So basically you're saying that Jesus cannot have been physically resurrected because the bible states that every being has only one life and shall not be granted any more until judgement. The most similar verse I can find is Hebrews 9:27 which says "Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment", New International Version (if you meant another verse please let me know).
Saying that Jesus cannot be resurrected because of this verse is honestly silly. Do you really think that "people" refers to Jesus as well? Jesus wasn't just a mere person to Paul (the author) you know. Other translations say "man", but it's the same situation again.

 

These objections are honestly silly. You're taking bible verses way too literally even though you know Jesus spoke in metaphors very frequently.

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2 hours ago, ILoveJesus said:

Like I made clear before, "3 days and 3 nights" was an old Jewish expression which meant any time period that touches three days. This time period touched Friday Saturday and Sunday, which is three days, regardless of what time it was. Also, you didn't even respond to my second explanation which is also plausible.

lol this part just made me cringe. friday is day 0, siphr inarabic, cero in spanish, nul in dutch. if it started on friday, that means friday is day 0. saturday would be day 1, and sunday would be day 2. wth i even counted them for you previously. cringe was real in this reply. it pretty much set the tone for the rest of your argument: lacking and in a desperate attempt, you called my argument weak. all i derived from your reply is that you seriously haven't read the bible. Lastly on the topic of Jesus, if someone makes a direct statement, there really shouldn't be any metaphors. look at the context. when those jews asked him he called them the sons of an adulterous generation (he basically called their mums *****s) and heap a whole load of insults on them before he specifically said he was gonna "in the belly of the earth for threedays and three nights just as Jonah was in the belly of the whale for three days and three nights." the only literary technique one canfind in there is the comparison of events. there are no metaphors. Just because said person usually speaks in metaphors, doesn't mean said person will speak in metaphors all the time.

Sure Jesus wasn't 'just a man' to paul BUT when critics of the bible ask why Jesus ate and prayed and stated that the power resided with the father and nt with him, bible sholars state that Jesus was still part man and it was the man part of him that needed to complete this. you can't abandon an argument in one instance to defend from another attack. your admitting that jesus was not man at all (please don't deny it, you just stated that Jesus wasn't just a man.' to why that bible verse doesn't apply to him) leaves you open to attacks on the caims i mentioned earlier.

The whole point of bringing up mary magdalene was to show that he wasn't dead, and that the only disciple that in your NT stayed with him to the end, knew that he was still alive. your bible is contradictory among other things, which i will not say, and seriously, get off this topic. you started this, and i ended it it. don't try and bring it up again. it's as i mentioned before sickening, as well as completely distracting. however i rest assure in my knoweledge of the bible to not wait over 4 days to reply, so thats a small relief. 

 

you know what. your religion is yours. my religion is mine. keep your belief intact or not, i dont really care. if im gonna waste my time, i'd rather it be on something of actual value, where my knoweledge of the subject is at least equal to those around me, and where there is no way i can possibly insult someone's religion because as i mentioned before, i don't really like debating religions. in the end, as i said before, you keep your religion to yourself, keep your belief intact. i dont really care if you bring a christian perspective on whatever topic is to be spoken on next, just stop with this endless rambling. weve seriously been debating this thing for like a page and a bit!!

all love and no offence meant as long as you don't bring it up again,

 

Talalrulez

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@talalrulezI will not get off this topic because it bothers me that you actually think that you've disproved the resurrection.

3 hours ago, talalrulez said:

lol this part just made me cringe. friday is day 0, siphr inarabic, cero in spanish, nul in dutch. if it started on friday, that means friday is day 0. saturday would be day 1, and sunday would be day 2. wth i even counted them for you previously. cringe was real in this reply. it pretty much set the tone for the rest of your argument: lacking and in a desperate attempt, you called my argument weak. all i derived from your reply is that you seriously haven't read the bible. Lastly on the topic of Jesus, if someone makes a direct statement, there really shouldn't be any metaphors. look at the context. when those jews asked him he called them the sons of an adulterous generation (he basically called their mums *****s) and heap a whole load of insults on them before he specifically said he was gonna "in the belly of the earth for threedays and three nights just as Jonah was in the belly of the whale for three days and three nights." the only literary technique one canfind in there is the comparison of events. there are no metaphors. Just because said person usually speaks in metaphors, doesn't mean said person will speak in metaphors all the time

Look, if Jesus was in the belly of the earth for three days and three nights where "three days and three nights" means "any time period that touches three days", and Jesus was in the heart of the earth Friday, Saturday, and Sunday, then he was in the heart of the earth for a time period that touches three days, so he was in the heart of the earth for "three days and three nights". No contradiction. 

3 hours ago, talalrulez said:

Sure Jesus wasn't 'just a man' to paul BUT when critics of the bible ask why Jesus ate and prayed and stated that the power resided with the father and nt with him, bible sholars state that Jesus was still part man and it was the man part of him that needed to complete this. you can't abandon an argument in one instance to defend from another attack. your admitting that jesus was not man at all (please don't deny it, you just stated that Jesus wasn't just a man.' to why that bible verse doesn't apply to him) leaves you open to attacks on the caims i mentioned earlier.

Please explain to me how Paul saying "Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment" (Hebrews 9:27) means that Jesus can't be resurrected. He cannot e referring tbJesus because Jesus isn't going to face judgement according to Paul. And even if you make the mistake of thinking that he does mean Jesus, saying that he died one doesn't contradict a resurrection.

 

3 hours ago, talalrulez said:

The whole point of bringing up mary magdalene was to show that he wasn't dead, and that the only disciple that in your NT stayed with him to the end, knew that he was still alive

Answer two questions for me. Why would Mary Magdalene visiting the tomb mean that she knew he was alive? And why do you think that she's the only one who stayed with Jesus to the end according to the NT? According to the NT, the one who buried Jesus was Joseph of Arimathea.

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look im doing this as a one-off off my pledge. firstly if friday is day 0, then it touched 2 days, not 3 days. Ive counted the days for you, and you still seem not to understand. this part of your argument is driving me crazy. letme make it clear for you. if you died on friday at say 5:am, on saturday at 5:00 am, you will be considered to have died for one day. enough with that. 

You do know that Jesus prayed, ate ate, and had all the other functions a normal human has. when critics of the bible ask why Jesus prayed, and said that "power is in the lord, my father, and not with me", bible scholars say the part human in him had to do that. Humans will have a resurrection one day according to the bible, and fter that, you can't touch them. If jesus is part man, that means he is susceptibe to this resurrection, yet if he was indeed resurrected, why hide from the romans and jews. do you not understand what a contradiction means.

Lastly, it wasn't that Mary Magdalene came to the tomb that i was caring about. It's what she said when she came to the tomb. cbf finding it in the bible. watch the link below from 1:01:15

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4eDN8cJs41I

also, i say that she was the last one to the end, considering all the other disciples were too bothered to find out for themselves whether Jesus died or not, and instead, relied on the words of the romans and jews around them. 

capische. seriously, im not responding anymore. all you're doing is making up excuses.

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2 hours ago, talalrulez said:

firstly if friday is day 0, then it touched 2 days, not 3 days. Ive counted the days for you, and you still seem not to understand. this part of your argument is driving me crazy. letme make it clear for you. if you died on friday at say 5:am, on saturday at 5:00 am, you will be considered to have died for one day. enough with that. 

If Friday is day zero, and it touched day zero, day 1, and day 2, then it still touched three days. And yes in your example you will be considered to have been dead for 24 hours, but it would still have touched two days and not just one.

 

2 hours ago, talalrulez said:

You do know that Jesus prayed, ate ate, and had all the other functions a normal human has. when critics of the bible ask why Jesus prayed, and said that "power is in the lord, my father, and not with me", bible scholars say the part human in him had to do that. Humans will have a resurrection one day according to the bible, and fter that, you can't touch them. If jesus is part man, that means he is susceptibe to this resurrection, yet if he was indeed resurrected, why hide from the romans and jews. do you not understand what a contradiction means.

 

So you're saying Jesus wasn't resurrected because he was fearing that the Jews would kill him. But dude, fear of someone killing you isn't the only reason you might want to hide from that someone. There could be plenty of reasons he hid from them besides fearing that they would kill him. They were his enemies.

 

2 hours ago, talalrulez said:

Lastly, it wasn't that Mary Magdalene came to the tomb that i was caring about. It's what she said when she came to the tomb. cbf finding it in the bible. watch the link below from 1:01:15

I watched it. But in the Bible it's clear that Mary Magdalene (and others) came to the tomb to anoint him with spices, which was a Jewish burial custom. So they thought he was dead, not alive.

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I just want to make people aware again that the majority of New Testament scholars (this includes many non-Christians) agree that

- The tomb in which Jesus was buried after the crucifixion was found empty 

- Various people had experiences of appearances of Jesus alive after the crucifixion

- Jesus' disciples suddenly came to believe that Jesus rose from the dead.

It's amazing that most New Testament scholars actually agree on those facts. This data was gathered from historian Gary Habermas who reviewed all papers from relevant scholars on the historicity of Jesus since 1975.

Here are some quotes by prominent NON-Christian NT scholars: 

"That Jesus’ followers (and later Paul) had resurrection experiences is, in my judgment, a fact." - E.P. Sanders

"It is a historical fact that some of Jesus’ followers came to believe that he had been raised from the dead soon after his execution. We know some of these believers by name; one of them, the apostle Paul, claims quite plainly to have seen Jesus alive after his death. Thus, for the historian, Christianity begins after the death of Jesus, not with the resurrection itself, but with the belief in the resurrection." - Bart Ehrman

"The historical ground of Easter is very simple: the followers of Jesus, both then and now, continued to experience Jesus as a living reality after his death. In the early Christian community, these experiences included visions or apparitions of Jesus." - Marcus Borg

The best explanation of these facts is that Jesus rose from the dead.

I don't have anything else to add.

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Is there a problem in which people are misunderstanding these facts?

It's pretty straight forward.

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Sorry, when I had posted that the only post I saw was the one above (above my first post that is).

I just want to say this : Has anyone considered that God isn't essentially conscious? As in perhaps a balance in the universe or simply an entity unaware of its actions in creating our world?

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5 hours ago, ILoveJesus said:

 

Here are some quotes by prominent NON-Christian NT scholars: 

"That Jesus’ followers (and later Paul) had resurrection experiences is, in my judgment, a fact." - E.P. Sanders

"It is a historical fact that some of Jesus’ followers came to believe that he had been raised from the dead soon after his execution. We know some of these believers by name; one of them, the apostle Paul, claims quite plainly to have seen Jesus alive after his death. Thus, for the historian, Christianity begins after the death of Jesus, not with the resurrection itself, but with the belief in the resurrection." - Bart Ehrman

"The historical ground of Easter is very simple: the followers of Jesus, both then and now, continued to experience Jesus as a living reality after his death. In the early Christian community, these experiences included visions or apparitions of Jesus." - Marcus Borg

The best explanation of these facts is that Jesus rose from the dead.

I don't have anything else to add.

good that you dont have anything to add after my saying i dont want to add anymore, and yet have left me osmething so tasty. only your first quote, by e.p sanders sounded partially affirming for the resurrection. the other two basically say that the followers of jesus suupposedly had visions of jesus, but it doesn't really confirm the resurrection. but that the first quote ill admit threw me off a bit. until i found the whole thing...

 

New Testament scholar and theologian E. P. Sanders argues that a concerted plot to foster belief in the Resurrection would probably have resulted in a more consistent story, and that some of those who were involved in the events gave their lives for their belief. Sanders offers his own hypothesis, saying "there seems to have been a competition: 'I saw him,' 'so did I,' 'the women saw him first,' 'no, I did; they didn't see him at all,' and so on."[14] In defending the historicity of the resurrection, Sanders goes so far as to state, "That Jesus’ followers (and later Paul) had resurrection experiences is, in my judgment, a fact. What the reality was that gave rise to the experiences I do not know."[15]

wikipedia.org

g... the fact that this guy is still agnostic despite being a "new testament scholar" also doesn't sound good. It basically means that he's an expert in Christianity, a lot more so than your daily christian, and has still decided that Christianity was a religion worth believing in.

gg. i swear im not returning to this topic after this anymore, no matter how many tasty morsels you offer me. 

Edited by talalrulez

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Dear IBS community,

We have decided to turn off replies to this topic, as it has drifted from pure discussion it was  intended for. 

Naturally, everyone has their own beliefs and opinions, but those are also to be respected regardless of one's personal views. This, sadly, wasn't something we observed for the past few weeks. The topic became full of underlying hate where people drifted from the idea of whether a god exists to disproving someone else's god or making them seem inferior. 

This community should be open-minded; as IB students we are taught to respect others no matter what our own personal belief is. Please reconsider your actions and reflect on your own posts in this thread.

You are more than welcome to continue the debate in your private messages. 

Thank you for hearing us out.

IBS Team

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