Are there aliens out there?

[Proletariat]

Take the Drake equation. The most optimistic variables will give you tens of thousands of advanced civilizations in the galaxy. The least optimistic will give you 0.000065 (might be a zero off.)

Of course, the equation itself can be challenged, and the variables are extremely hard to pin down (some are essentially impossible.) But I suppose the lesson is that the optimist and the cynic, the believer and the realist, will both believe what they want to believe, and see what they want to see.

Personally though, several things stand in the way for me to accept the concept of alien life. First is the infinite improbability of abiogenesis. Once you have the random formation of amino acids, you've got to string them in proteins. And the chances of every single amino acid of a protein self-assembling into the correct order is 1 in 10^260. That's more than all the atoms in the universe.

Second, even if intelligent civilization exist(ed) elsewhere in the universe, it is so incredibly unlikely that they would be co-existing at the same time as us right now. The universe is 14 billion years old. Earth is 4. Eukaryotes only half of that, at 2 billion. Keeping the same units, homo sapiens are roughly 0.00001 billion years old, civilization 0.000001. Number of years we've been capable of interstellar communication: 0.00000005 (billion.)

No one knows how long human civilization will last, of course. If you treat it as a German tank problem you get a figure of about 10 000 left for human civilization. Give or take. But, the fact remains that the period of time in which human society is capable of interstellar communication is extremely brief in the whole scale of the universe. If advanced civilizations do indeed exist, the chances that they will be simultaneously existing at the same time as ours are incredibly slim. Even crediting several billion for galactic/planetary formation, you're still cutting extremely thin slices from a very, very large cake.

Plus, there's that additional problem of other intelligent organisms possibly operating with thought processes magnitudes faster or slower than humans. If this occurs, then any form of communication we may choose to use would almost certainly go undetected. Throw in the complications of spacetime and relativity, and, to me, there just seems to be a whole lot of hurdles to overcome to make this work.

[citizenoftheuniverse]

I think it is stupid to say that aliens dont exist. The universe is so huge it is highly unlikely that Earth is the only one carrying life. However, I don´t think we will be discovering any anytime soon.

[Proletariat]

I think it is stupid to say that aliens dont exist. The universe is so huge it is highly unlikely that Earth is the only one carrying life.

Personally though, several things stand in the way for me to accept the concept of alien life. First is the infinite improbability of abiogenesis. Once you have the random formation of amino acids, you've got to string them in proteins. And the chances of every single amino acid of a protein self-assembling into the correct order is 1 in 10^260. That's more than all the atoms in the universe.

[nametaken]

I think it is stupid to say that aliens dont exist. The universe is so huge it is highly unlikely that Earth is the only one carrying life.

Personally though, several things stand in the way for me to accept the concept of alien life. First is the infinite improbability of abiogenesis. Once you have the random formation of amino acids, you've got to string them in proteins. And the chances of every single amino acid of a protein self-assembling into the correct order is 1 in 10^260. That's more than all the atoms in the universe.

Why is it always logical with you?! Can't something transcend the realm of rationality?

Edited February 27, 2011 by nametaken

[Proletariat]

When did I ever say aliens do or do not exist? Could it be that your coupling of the exclamation and quotation marks, done in irk, was based on erroneous understanding of my posts on your part?

Citizen made the comment that "it is stupid to say that aliens don't exist." I quoted evidence to prove that it is, in fact, not a stupid position to adopt. I wasn't trying to prove nor disprove anything, other than ignorance. If anything, I am the one that has always argued such questions cannot likely be answered by man rationally, which is the only conclusion one can sanely come to if they actual have read and understood my posts until this point.

I apologize if you find logical cumbersome. Upon request, I would gladly point you towards internet forums which, I can assure you, are much less logical; perhaps you will find those better suitable for your tastes.

[nametaken]

When did I ever say aliens do or do not exist? Could it be that your coupling of the exclamation and quotation marks, done in irk, was based on erroneous understanding of my posts on your part?

Citizen made the comment that "it is stupid to say that aliens don't exist." I quoted evidence to prove that it is, in fact, not a stupid position to adopt. I wasn't trying to prove nor disprove anything, other than ignorance. If anything, I am the one that has always argued such questions cannot likely be answered by man rationally, which is the only conclusion one can sanely come to if they actual have read and understood my posts until this point.

I apologize if you find logical cumbersome. Upon request, I would gladly point you towards internet forums which, I can assure you, are much less logical; perhaps you will find those better suitable for your tastes.

Lighten up, dude! Why so serious (and formal)?

Edited February 28, 2011 by nametaken

[Proletariat]

When did I ever say aliens do or do not exist? Could it be that your coupling of the exclamation and quotation marks, done in irk, was based on erroneous understanding of my posts on your part?

Citizen made the comment that "it is stupid to say that aliens don't exist." I quoted evidence to prove that it is, in fact, not a stupid position to adopt. I wasn't trying to prove nor disprove anything, other than ignorance. If anything, I am the one that has always argued such questions cannot likely be answered by man rationally, which is the only conclusion one can sanely come to if they actual have read and understood my posts until this point.

I apologize if you find logical cumbersome. Upon request, I would gladly point you towards internet forums which, I can assure you, are much less logical; perhaps you will find those better suitable for your tastes.

Lighten up, dude! Why so serious (and formal)?

Lol, that's your reply? Really?

At least your previous posts, however brief and insubstantial, had the pretense of an argument. Looks like you just stopped trying this time.

[nametaken]

When did I ever say aliens do or do not exist? Could it be that your coupling of the exclamation and quotation marks, done in irk, was based on erroneous understanding of my posts on your part?

Citizen made the comment that "it is stupid to say that aliens don't exist." I quoted evidence to prove that it is, in fact, not a stupid position to adopt. I wasn't trying to prove nor disprove anything, other than ignorance. If anything, I am the one that has always argued such questions cannot likely be answered by man rationally, which is the only conclusion one can sanely come to if they actual have read and understood my posts until this point.

I apologize if you find logical cumbersome. Upon request, I would gladly point you towards internet forums which, I can assure you, are much less logical; perhaps you will find those better suitable for your tastes.

Lighten up, dude! Why so serious (and formal)?

Lol, that's your reply? Really?

At least your previous posts, however brief and insubstantial, had the pretense of an argument. Looks like you just stopped trying this time.

'Brief and insubstantial'they may be however I was simply expressing my irksome opinion.

To be honest..I'm not really fussed. I just wanted to put a 'spring' in your logical step.

Edited February 28, 2011 by nametaken

[Proletariat]

When did I ever say aliens do or do not exist? Could it be that your coupling of the exclamation and quotation marks, done in irk, was based on erroneous understanding of my posts on your part?

Citizen made the comment that "it is stupid to say that aliens don't exist." I quoted evidence to prove that it is, in fact, not a stupid position to adopt. I wasn't trying to prove nor disprove anything, other than ignorance. If anything, I am the one that has always argued such questions cannot likely be answered by man rationally, which is the only conclusion one can sanely come to if they actual have read and understood my posts until this point.

I apologize if you find logical cumbersome. Upon request, I would gladly point you towards internet forums which, I can assure you, are much less logical; perhaps you will find those better suitable for your tastes.

Lighten up, dude! Why so serious (and formal)?

Lol, that's your reply? Really?

At least your previous posts, however brief and insubstantial, had the pretense of an argument. Looks like you just stopped trying this time.

'Brief and insubstantial'they may be however I was simply expressing my irksome opinion.

To be honest..I'm not really fussed. I just wanted to put a 'spring' in your logical step.

If you took the time to actually read my posts, you'll realize that this particular opinion of yours is based on misguided assumptions/interpretations on your part. Since this is more or less what I typed above, finding myself typing the same thing again indicates that you haven't done this step.

At this point, it's not so much a debate as someone trying to explain their position to someone else over and over and over. I'm not going to play that role. If you haven't comprehended my argument by now, then you never will.

This was amusing in a way; it's not often I am called ridiculously logical irl.

[nametaken]

When did I ever say aliens do or do not exist? Could it be that your coupling of the exclamation and quotation marks, done in irk, was based on erroneous understanding of my posts on your part?

Citizen made the comment that "it is stupid to say that aliens don't exist." I quoted evidence to prove that it is, in fact, not a stupid position to adopt. I wasn't trying to prove nor disprove anything, other than ignorance. If anything, I am the one that has always argued such questions cannot likely be answered by man rationally, which is the only conclusion one can sanely come to if they actual have read and understood my posts until this point.

I apologize if you find logical cumbersome. Upon request, I would gladly point you towards internet forums which, I can assure you, are much less logical; perhaps you will find those better suitable for your tastes.

Lighten up, dude! Why so serious (and formal)?

Lol, that's your reply? Really?

At least your previous posts, however brief and insubstantial, had the pretense of an argument. Looks like you just stopped trying this time.

'Brief and insubstantial'they may be however I was simply expressing my irksome opinion.

To be honest..I'm not really fussed. I just wanted to put a 'spring' in your logical step.

If you took the time to actually read my posts, you'll realize that this particular opinion of yours is based on misguided assumptions/interpretations on your part. Since this is more or less what I typed above, finding myself typing the same thing again indicates that you haven't done this step.

At this point, it's not so much a debate as someone trying to explain their position to someone else over and over and over. I'm not going to play that role. If you haven't comprehended my argument by now, then you never will.

This was amusing in a way; it's not often I am called ridiculously logical irl.

I'm not trying to debate with you... ! Or argue with you. I'm simply having fun.

[Proletariat]

I'm not trying to debate with you...

Then you're in the wrong forum. ---->

[Austin Glau]

Behold! Alien Lifeforms!

http://www.theonion....-the-media,719/

WASHINGTON, DC—A coalition of extraterrestrials representing some two trillion lifeforms across the five major planetary confederations descended on Earth Monday to speak out against "the demeaning, degrading and hurtful portrayals" of aliens in the planet's media. Gnortakk, a spokesbeing for Extraterrestrials For Media Equity, speaks to Earthling reporters.

"Attention! People of Earth!" said Gnortakk, Son Of K'Tzazzghn, spokesbeing for Extraterrestrials For Media Equity. "The preponderance of stereotypical and condemnatory images of non-Earth species in your films, TV programs, books and video games can no longer be tolerated."

"For years, we have endured your planet's depiction of aliens as either ruthless, tyrannical conquerors or bumbling, ineffectual, 'comic relief' creatures," Aegon, Fifth Of The Five, said. "It's high time humanoids presented positive, realistic images of aliens going about their everyday lives."

Presenting a montage of clips from such Hollywood fare as Independence Day, Mars Attacks!, Species, Men In Black, Sphere, and the Alien trilogy, Aegon noted that the films' extraterrestrials are portrayed as "ruthless, arbitrary murderers, bent on destroying the human race."

"And why would we want to destroy you?" Aegon asked. "To colonize your wretched, oxygen-polluted planet? To steal your paltry resources, as if we did not have molecular-constitution technology of our own? No planet has ever made such a threat to Earth, yet, time and time again, from War Of The Worlds on down, we have been depicted as single-minded killers. That's just plain hurtful."

"Yes, some aliens are bent upon the destruction or subjugation of the Earth," Malorf Of Gundarg said. "But why focus exclusively on them when there are trillions of other species that only seek scientific learning or peaceful unification of the races? The vast majority of us are simply carbon, silicon or gas-based lifeforms, just trying to survive and propagate the species, the same as all of you."

In addition to the Earth-media's "blatantly xenophobic" characterization of aliens as violent, the EME blasted "the equally damaging depiction of aliens as ignorant and uncivilized."

"In the rare instances in which aliens are shown as non-threatening or even friendly to humans, they are typically dim-witted and fearful—and always subservient," said K'qqq'tthhb Of The Meta-Entity, underscoring his point with clips from the popular Star Wars films, in which such alien sidekicks as Chewbacca and Jar Jar Binks provide comic relief. "Viewing these images, it is not hard to see why many Earthlings grow up convinced of their own inherent superiority in the universe."

"I'd love to see the mightiest Earthling try to navigate the sodium jungles of Skorg-7," K'qqq'tthhb added. "You humans wouldn't even exist if not for the fact that your planet is protected under the Cassiopeian Accord as a wildlife preserve."

One of the most harmful effects of the media's negative images of aliens, EME spokesbeings said, is that they leave young aliens with no positive role models to emulate.

"The children of Bleemo need to see images of space-beings like themselves doing good things so they can realize that they, too, are capable of such achievements," Blanthus, Spawn Of Malthus, said. "Instead of always casting an alien as the cruel planetary overlord, perpetuating an offensive, eons-old stereotype, why can't Hollywood have a space creature be a doctor or a schoolteacher or a fireman?"

Blanthus called for an increase in "positive, uplifting storylines, in which humans and aliens work together against the real enemies, like the sun-devouring plasma cloud of Gwill-VII or the impending collapse of the space-time continuum at the ruptured black hole in the farthest reaches of the Milky Way."

Responding to the EME charges, 20th Century Fox released a statement Tuesday denying that its films and television programs are specist. "20th Century Fox has always strived to create movies and TV shows that celebrate the gloriously diverse spectrum of life that is our universe," the release said. "Jar Jar and other such characters are funny, friendly creatures who no more smack of specism than does E.T."

Osgorothax Of Snarn, Under-Praetor of the EME, blasted the 20th Century Fox statement as "deeply troubling and indicative of the very problem at hand."

"Hollywood is interested in one thing and one thing only: maintaining the pan-galactic status quo," Osgorothax said. "How can anyone deny this when, in this supposedly enlightened day and age, utterly distasteful and wholly offensive programs like 3rd Rock From The Sun are considered acceptable for widespread viewing? Earthlings, this is your final warning: Clean up your act now or prepare to suffer the consequences."

[Jaydon]

The Bible says no, Science Fiction says yes. I myself (even being a Christian) believe that we surely can't be alone in this universe. In Genesis 1:1, "In the beginning god created the heavens and the earth" says that god created the heavens, not to be confused with heaven which is space and everything in it. This could include other life forms as well. As for logic, surely this can't be the only habitable planet in a universe of planets. I think aliens do exist somewhere, intelligent or not.

[DaaeDore]

I don't understand... What reasons are there for disbelieving? Just as we exist, there are probably others who exist...

[Crnjanski]

First of all, I must say that this topic really got into me not just on this forum but in general.

I watched several universe-related shows and spoken to my physics teacher several times. That being said, my knowledge of the Universe is not really big by any means, but I know some basic stuff.

Take a look at this:

there are over billion galaxies (many of which are WAY bigger than our Milky Way), every of those galaxies contains billions and billions of stars (also, many of which are bigger than our Sun), and all those stars have the same potential as our Sun to have a planetary system of 2, 3, 6, 9 or maybe even 15-20 planets. What I forgot to mention is that in our own galaxy - Milky Way, there are also billions and billions of stars and all of them have the potential to have planetary system.

Furthermore, don't you find a bit disturbing the number of reported UFOs in the past 20 years (and I'm not speaking about regular people's reports but pilots, armies, scientists etc..)

A few examples:

- While flying over USA, pilot of the Air France contacted US Aircraft flight control saying that a cigarette-like object flew over his cabin at astonishing speed. He added that object had one white light on 'nose' and white light line on the bottom. The object couldn't be seen on airplane's radar nor on the US Aircraft control's radar. About 5 minutes later, 220km away from the Air France plane, a pilot of the American airlines contacted US Aircraft flight control describing the object exactly the same way as Air France pilot (pilot of the American airlines didn't know that Air France previously encountered the same object). To make the story even more unbelievable, yet another (3rd) airplane contacted US Aircraft control describing the same as American airlines and Air France pilots. I forgot who was the third pilot but I think it was Indian airlines or something like that. This is, in my opinion, very disturbing as three pilots described exactly the same thing not knowing that other pilots previously encountered it (proof that 3 people couldn't made up exactly the same object). Furthermore, all three planes were over 200km away from each other and all of them reported seeing the object in just 15 minutes (which means that the object was flying really, really fast).

- NASA has 2 broadcasting channels during their missions to space. Channel number 1 is open to public and anyone can listen to what astronauts speak when they are in space. Channel number 2, on the other hand, is private government channel not accessible to public. Whenever something strange happens on NASA missions, astronauts switch to channel number 2. I am familiar with one example when an astronaut said on the public channel: "We have a UFO", and then switched to channel number 2 and continued the talks with NASA.

- The third example, at the same time the one that completely persuaded me that there ARE 'aliens' is the one involving NASA astronauts, same as previous. Namely, on one of their missions an NASA astronaut took a camera and began filming the space around the space shuttle. At one point he was filming stars. So on the video you could see millions of stars, and then out of nowhere a bright white circle flew into the picture at astonishing speed. The object was way bigger than the stars (not really, just it was closer than the stars). The object flew into the picture from bottom-right angle, and almost completely stopped in the center of the picture like it was looking at the astronauts. Then, the object made 180 turn and flew out of the picture, continuing to defy the basic laws of physics. Just a few moments later, while the astronaut's hand was still shaking from what he saw, another object similar to previous one flew into the picture but disappeared really fast. This objects couldn't be comets, moving stars, meteors, they couldn't be anything known to humans. And, above all, this is not an amateur lie - this is a video captured by an NASA astronaut, the video couldn't be more legitimate.

I'm of the opinion that we're not alone. Basically, we can't be. Maybe we're not the supreme species in the Universe, but we certainly are not alone, I find it to be impossible that we are. Maybe there is another planet just like ours, populated with humans just like we are. Maybe those same humans are trying to figure out whether there is someone else in the Universe, but same as we do, they doesn't posses the technology that could enable them to travel far in space.

Humans are supreme species in the Universe - humans are not supreme species in the universe

humans are alone - humans are not alone

other species in the universe are humans and look like humans just that live on another planets - other species in the universe are monsters

To conclude with, I think that there is a planet just like ours, populated with humans that have different countries, languages, powers...they also had wars and changes of centuries and cultures. They might have already visited us, or they still don't have the technology to do so......

So ask yourself, by reading everything mentioned above, is it possible that we are alone?

Thanks for reading

Edited April 17, 2011 by Crnjanski

[Chris Kuno]

While there may be little evidence that aliens exist, I personally cannot believe that we are the only "intelligent" life forms in the ENTIRE universe. While we may be the only planet that supports life in our entire galaxy - which is difficult to comprehend in itself. It is estimated that there are over 100 billion observable galaxies in the universe. If the planetary habitability is even 1/100000 per galaxy, there would be at least 100 000 planets that support life in the entire universe. I believe that scientists need to broaden their search when looking for planets that support/can support life. Just because a planet does not have oxygen, or hydrogen does not mean it is unable to support life. If a planet is 400oC then it is deemed impossible to support life. I believe this is flawed too. Perhaps it will be impossible to find a planet that is identical to Earth in every manner, however, just because a planet like ours may not exist, does that therefore mean there are NO planets that support life?

Anyway, thats my alien rant of the day. We\ll find the aliens one day, or more likely they'll find us with THEIR superior technology. Perhaps they've already found us and have been observing us from a distance. Or maybe they have already blended with our current society. There's no way Usain Bolt could run that fast - perhaps he's a super powered alien.

Now im just ranting.

When like gives you lemons...make apple juice.

[IBHaileybury]

I'm presenting a brief outline of the 'Intelligent Life Elsewhere' issue in a TOK class next week- and pose the following points, in relation to feasible 'Ways of Knowing':

1) Deductive (Mathematical) Reasoning-

-Firstly, we have the Drake Equation- An array of variables multiplied to generate the number of civilisations (in the Milky Way Galaxy) with which communication may be viable. Employing standard estimates of the equation's parameters, a value of ten is returned. Indeed, whilst the groundings of the Drake Equation may, to some extent, be labeled products of induction- the formula does serve as an intriguing platform for further deductive analysis.

2) Perception

-Secondly, we have the quintessential armaments of astronomy/cosmology (e.g. Kepler Space Telescope, Allen Radio Telescope Array, Hubble, etc...)

-If we are citing perception as the relevant 'Way of Knowing', we are, indeed, inadvertently citing the medium of language (Radio/Electromagnetic communication of a structured form)

3) Intuition?

-As stated on multiple accounts in prior posts- Given the vastness of the universe, does the presence of intelligent life elsewhere in the Universe intuitively follow?

Finally- all aforementioned 'Ways of Knowing' are interweaved with a swathe of Problems of Knowledge, such as:

1) Uncertainty (Limitation?)

-Whether we possess the requisite technology aptitude to detect another civilisation is unknown (e.g. By nature of the Universe's age- probability greatly favors the discovery of a civilisation characterised by unfathomable complexity- i.e. Humanity in one million years?)

2) Bias (Religious)

-Intransigence- interests vested in the religious predominance of humanity (e.x. Christianity- would this necessitate a perceptual reformation of humanity's place in the Universe, and indeed, Bible?) Would our yearning for company in the universe be satiated, thus eliminating religion- which may fulfill an analogous role?

3) Problems of Verification

-White radio noise? A stray signal?

-Decoding of the message- would the original form be comprehensible to a scientifically validating extend? Could it be the product of an unknown phenomenon?

4) Problems of Justification (Assuming the Way of Knowing is Intuition)

-Logic does not necessitate intelligent life elsewhere in the Universe- irrespective of the Universe's scale.

And there we are. : )

Edited May 15, 2011 by IBHaileybury

[ShootingStars]

I believe so. Well its not proven, but we know how huge the universe is. So are we really that self obsessed to think we're the only ones living in the universe?

[Ezak]

What would happen to all religion if aliens were to make contact? If aliens are seen as people to be saved, where do you draw the line for "people" and creatures?