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Israel vs Palestine


Abu

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As for Islam, I studied Islam for 10 years, but I've also mentioned I don't consider myself a Muslim because I disagree with Islam on some points and on some other points I just don't believe in...

No offence, but why are you even adopting this religion? Why dont you just find youself another religion that goes with your way of believing things.

Its kinda hard to believe that you studies Islam for 10 years, if you did, you wont be saying this right now.

The fact that you don't, apprently, believe in the hadeeth saying that palestine is going to be ours again, means you're publically saying that the prophet (PBUH) is lying. This hadeeth is sa7ee7. You say you dont believe in all of them. If you dont believe in this one, which is a saheeh, then you might as-well just not believe anything he says.

If you adopting this religion, then you're in no position to disagree with it in point that you cant argue about. If this religion doesnt appeal to you, then find another one that does. Again, no offence, but the people that read this (not members) are having the same impression. You studies islam for 10 years, ok, what about this,

"wa la tas2alu 3an ashya2a in tubda lakum tasu2kum" (sorry guys, I really dont know how to translate this verse properly), tell me you dont believe in this as well.

Again, dont take it as an extreme offence, Im just saying my point, because you're giving a really bad false general opinion on all muslims in palestine. If you studies islam for 10 years, you'd know what this religion really means. Since you dont, I'm questionning your definition of 'studied'.

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She's already said she no longer considers herself Muslim.

And studying a religion doesn't mean you have to agree with it on everything.

Then she shouldnt talk as one. And she should make it clear to everyone that she's not a muslim anymore.

Exactly, 'studying' is different from 'adopting' a religion. She's talking as a non-practising muslim. She could say what she wants, as long as she makes it clear that she's saying this because she doesnt consider herself a muslim, not because islam allows this.

Edited by mahuta
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(I couldnt fit all of this in one post, so devided into two)

How can you say that when israel just simply kicked people out of their houses in 1948 and left them in camps for years with nothing to eat? How come no one went like "there's noway you can kick out palestinians out of their houses just like that".

This is what I think and believe, but its not impossible to get palestine back, the same way israelis were gathered from all over the world, they could be put them back where they came from. This might sound rude and cruel, but hey, thats exactly what happened to palestinians, well most of them, they're scattered all over the world now. Its like israelis or zionist suddenyl decided that they're better than those palestinians and they should be in their places.

Hell no it doesnt. Explain all the crimes israel commited since 1948.

Many Israelis were in concentration camps before they came here. So where do you want them to return to? Immigration happens all over the world; if France decided one day that it didn't like it's North African immigrants, would it have any right to send them back to their "homes" in Africa if they were legitimately born French citizens, and if they had never been there? It's now been 60 years since 1948. How many people have been born in that time period in this country? Where do you want them to go to? The land where their great-grandparents came from? Which could be in Iraq, where there is a war going on?

The same way you believe that this land is promised to the Palestinians in the Qur'an, the Torah says that this land is promised to the Jews. The Torah may mean nothing to you, but what's written in the Qur'an also means nothing to other people. You want to base the future of two people on what some religious books say? So theologists should be allowed to decide, according to what was written 2000 years ago, what will happen in the future?

You obviously don't believe in any idea of co-existence. For you, there's no way way Israelis could ever co-exist and live alongside Palestinians. You say you are open-minded, but I doubt that. I'm wondering how many Israelis you personally know. What do you know of the Israelis other than what you see on television? You don't want people to think that Muslims are extremist terrorists, but you are prepared to condemn all the Israelis and say that they should be thrown out. Hypocrite.

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Then she shouldnt talk as one. And she should make it clear to everyone that she's not a muslim anymore.

Exactly, 'studying' is different from 'adopting' a religion. She's talking as a non-practising muslim. She could say what she wants, as long as she makes it clear that she's saying this because she doesnt consider herself a muslim, not because islam allows this.

You're still missing the point. You don't need to be a practicing Muslim in order to have knowledge of Islam and profess that knowledge. The fact that she's talking about Islam doesn't mean she's "talking as if she's a Muslim".

Edited by Mr. Shiver
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No offence, but why are you even adopting this religion? Why dont you just find youself another religion that goes with your way of believing things.

Its kinda hard to believe that you studies Islam for 10 years, if you did, you wont be saying this right now.

The fact that you don't, apprently, believe in the hadeeth saying that palestine is going to be ours again, means you're publically saying that the prophet (PBUH) is lying. This hadeeth is sa7ee7. You say you dont believe in all of them. If you dont believe in this one, which is a saheeh, then you might as-well just not believe anything he says.

If you adopting this religion, then you're in no position to disagree with it in point that you cant argue about. If this religion doesnt appeal to you, then find another one that does. Again, no offence, but the people that read this (not members) are having the same impression. You studies islam for 10 years, ok, what about this,

"wa la tas2alu 3an ashya2a in tubda lakum tasu2kum" (sorry guys, I really dont know how to translate this verse properly), tell me you dont believe in this as well.

Again, dont take it as an extreme offence, Im just saying my point, because you're giving a really bad false general opinion on all muslims in palestine. If you studies islam for 10 years, you'd know what this religion really means. Since you dont, I'm questionning your definition of 'studied'.

Oh God, for the last time I am NOT a muslim. I was raised as one, studied it for 10 years because it was compulsory in my school but turned my back on it, but I still continue to study it, because it interests me. I do NOT talk on the behalf of the muslim population, and I certainly do not talk about Islam subjectively. Am I not allowed to be knowledgeable about Islam because I'm not a Muslim?

And by studied, I actually mean that I had Islamic lessons 3 times a week for an hour (for 10 years) by an extremely religious teacher who I'd used to fight all the time over Islam, and I started to get As, AFTER I left Islam. Irony.

Then she shouldnt talk as one. And she should make it clear to everyone that she's not a muslim anymore.

Exactly, 'studying' is different from 'adopting' a religion. She's talking as a non-practising muslim. She could say what she wants, as long as she makes it clear that she's saying this because she doesnt consider herself a muslim, not because islam allows this.

As Mr Shivers said, I don't consider myself as a Muslim, so don't consider me one if it bothers you so much.

And do you actually have sources about the Palestinian majority wanting the whole of Palestine back?

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I've just read this: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7822049.stm

and I think **** has just hit the fan! the idiot called this a holocaust? WAY TO PISS JEWS OFF! he can sit in his comfy home in Syria talk bull**** about an offensive while innocent people are dying for HIS cause and not THEIR CAUSE in Gaza! and then on top of it all he goes and says the only solution to this is a ceasefire from Israel! how about you tell your ****heads to ceasefire!

grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

what I want to understand is why the hell are the Israeli's firing at the UN aid lorries?! surely they must say UNWRA in nice blue letters on them! but of course even though the UN reported this, the military denies it! I think I'll take the UN word for it. I think the UN needs to start using water instead of Land to get to the Gazans! if the Israeli's really are just targetting "Hamas the terrorists" surely giving the innocent people stuck in the middle some food and medicine should be in their agenda somewhere! I think an evacuation of Gaza for all civilians should be arranged by the UN rather than these stupid calls for a ceasefire!

235 children dead?! do people not feel the weight of these words?! it looks like a number on the screen, but these are little innocent souls, who didn't have the chance, or choice! or anything! they were just born in the wrong place in the wrong year! all because a bunch of retards decided bombing each other 2 days after Christmas is a good idea! well done ****tards

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Why are we having a conversation about the religious beliefs of Leen? >.<

Let anybody believe what they want, we're not bound to religion.

Keep it to Israel and Palestine.

Back to the topic, a two state solution seems to be in the best interest of both parties.

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Why are we having a conversation about the religious beliefs of Leen? >.<

Let anybody believe what they want, we're not bound to religion.

Keep it to Israel and Palestine.

Back to the topic, a two state solution seems to be in the best interest of both parties.

don't you ignore my post! it was on topic!

and yea like Aboo said please stay on topic, and everyne believe in what ever they want! whether it's Jesus, the Prophet (pbuh), God, Buddah, mice, horses, sheep, the sun! what ever!

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Oh God, for the last time I am NOT a muslim. I was raised as one, studied it for 10 years because it was compulsory in my school but turned my back on it, but I still continue to study it, because it interests me. I do NOT talk on the behalf of the muslim population, and I certainly do not talk about Islam subjectively. Am I not allowed to be knowledgeable about Islam because I'm not a Muslim?

Fine. That's all I wanted to know. Never said that, go ahead and be knowledgeable as long as people know that this is not Islam allowing it.

And do you actually have sources about the Palestinian majority wanting the whole of Palestine back?

I wouldnt be talking just out of nowhere. I KNOW people, close ones that really want the whole of palestine back. Besides, all the documentaries show that most palestinians are still holding on to the last hint of hope. These people are mostly elderies, that witnessed what happened to the palestinians.

You might not be feeling the same way because you grew up knowing that palestine is only the west bank and the ghaza strip.

To everyone out there who's basing this horrendous situation in Gaza on a "two-state" solution:

this is NOT about two countries trying to find peace; this is about the millions of innocent children, women, men, seniors who were sloughtered mercilessly over 50 years.

I'm sorry to say my friends, this is not a politics issue.

This is a human rights issue.

Many Israelis were in concentration camps before they came here. So where do you want them to return to? Immigration happens all over the world; if France decided one day that it didn't like it's North African immigrants, would it have any right to send them back to their "homes" in Africa if they were legitimately born French citizens, and if they had never been there? It's now been 60 years since 1948. How many people have been born in that time period in this country? Where do you want them to go to? The land where their great-grandparents came from? Which could be in Iraq, where there is a war going on?

Would you talk about palestinians this way? Arent there palestinians out there that were simply kicked out? Do you want them to stay wherever they are in the world now forever?

The same way you believe that this land is promised to the Palestinians in the Qur'an, the Torah says that this land is promised to the Jews. The Torah may mean nothing to you, but what's written in the Qur'an also means nothing to other people. You want to base the future of two people on what some religious books say? So theologists should be allowed to decide, according to what was written 2000 years ago, what will happen in the future?

I do believe in the Torah just like I do in the Quran(at least thats what I'm simply told in the Quran, probably not the same version though). If you say its promised for jews to take this land, fine. But still thats not an excuse to kill millions of those people who were living in there before England decides to give the jews around there palestine.

You obviously don't believe in any idea of co-existence. For you, there's no way way Israelis could ever co-exist and live alongside Palestinians.

I do believe in co-existence, but the way Israel is trying to approach it.

You say you are open-minded, but I doubt that. I'm wondering how many Israelis you personally know. What do you know of the Israelis other than what you see on television? You don't want people to think that Muslims are extremist terrorists, but you are prepared to condemn all the Israelis and say that they should be thrown out. Hypocrite.

I said this like 3 times now, when I say israel I mean the gov. I clearly said that I dont blame you for saying some of those thigns since you were born there. I'm simply blaming and talking about the government.

Oh, and Im talking to you respectively, so please talk to me the same way.

I dont know any israelis but again, Im not blaming them. I never said they should be thrown, NEVER. I'm just simply asking: What about all those palestinians that Israel threw out?

As I said in the previous post, its not really about politics anymore, its more of an ethical issue.

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I wouldnt be talking just out of nowhere. I KNOW people, close ones that really want the whole of palestine back. Besides, all the documentaries show that most palestinians are still holding on to the last hint of hope. These people are mostly elderies, that witnessed what happened to the palestinians.

You might not be feeling the same way because you grew up knowing that palestine is only the west bank and the ghaza strip.

Okay you might have close Palestinian friends but I am a Palestinian, I live in a Palestinian community, I go to the West Bank regularly, I interact with Palestinians on a daily basis, and most of them say that a two-state solution is the best solution that they can have. Okay, not only the elderly witnessed what happened to the Palestinians, I witnessed that too... It's called the Second Intifada.

Actually I grew up being told Palestine is the whole of Israel, so again don't judge before you know what the situation is actually like.

To everyone out there who's basing this horrendous situation in Gaza on a "two-state" solution:

this is NOT about two countries trying to find peace; this is about the millions of innocent children, women, men, seniors who were sloughtered mercilessly over 50 years.

I'm sorry to say my friends, this is not a politics issue.

This is a human rights issue.

No one said it wasn't a human rights issue.

I do believe in the Torah just like I do in the Quran(at least thats what I'm simply told in the Quran, probably not the same version though). If you say its promised for jews to take this land, fine. But still thats not an excuse to kill millions of those people who were living in there before England decides to give the jews around there palestine.

Ahem, as for the Quran saying its the promised land for muslims, think again...

"Pharoah sought to scare them [the Israelites] out of the land [of Israel]: but We [Allah] drowned him [Pharoah] together with all who were with him. Then We [Allah] said to the Israelites: 'Dwell in this land [the Land of Israel]. When the promise of the hereafter [End of Days] comes to be fulfilled, We [Allah] shall assemble you [the Israelites] all together [in the Land of Israel]."

7:100-104

I didn't want to do this but honestly, get your facts straight. Even the the Quran says that the land was given to the Jews. And yes I know we are all wary of translation so check out the verse in your own Quran.

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Uh-oh, there's a mistake there Leen.

It doesnt say JEWS, it says Israeli. Seeing the tafseer for this one, it certainly doesnt mean the israelis today. It is bani israel, those are the palestinians. Infact, I'm making in mistake by saying Israel, because it's actually a name for the prophet jacob. Hence, they were in some way believers. This certainly doesnt deny the fact that the palestinians were originally bani israel, i dont mean the israelis today.

And I didnt say it is a promised land for muslims, I said jerusalem will be ours again.(I know I didnt say jerusalem, but you get my point)

Yes, ok, I certainly see your first point. But, again, I think things were and still are worst in ghaza strip than in the west bank. The friends I have are mostly from ghaza strip, although I do know some people from the west bank.

Btw, I really dont want you to take as I'm trying to offend you in anyway, nor trying to be against you. I'm just participating in the debate.

Please, lets look at it as a peaceful debate. Lol, because I'm just having this impression that we're developing this 'pre-hatred' feeling and I certainly dont want that. >.<

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This is what irks me about some people who have no stake in this war, except for the obvious humanitarian concerns. A facebook status: "XXX asks every1 to pray for the Gaza people. ****ing Israelis have created their own version of Holocaust!"

It's not a bloody holocaust, if you're going to equate 860 people with more than 6 million people, there's something wrong in thinking that. The holocaust was pure hatred and discrimination. This is a war, death is a by product of it, it's to be expected. I may sound tactless, and I apologise but equating victims of war with a genocide is not correct.

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This is what irks me about some people who have no stake in this war, except for the obvious humanitarian concerns. A facebook status: "XXX asks every1 to pray for the Gaza people. ****ing Israelis have created their own version of Holocaust!"

It's not a bloody holocaust, if you're going to equate 860 people with more than 6 million people, there's something wrong in thinking that. The holocaust was pure hatred and discrimination. This is a war, death is a by product of it, it's to be expected. I may sound tactless, and I apologise but equating victims of war with a genocide is not correct.

yea that's why the Armenian Genoicide should be Acknowledged as a Genocide because there was no war at that time! ha!

Spoiler - Click me!
we moved on discussing religion and what not, thought I'd throw my cause in there too >.< do not feed the troll even if it's the Admin trolling :P read this post, laugh and move on!

[Close]

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Uh-oh, there's a mistake there Leen.

It doesnt say JEWS, it says Israeli. Seeing the tafseer for this one, it certainly doesnt mean the israelis today. It is bani israel, those are the palestinians. Infact, I'm making in mistake by saying Israel, because it's actually a name for the prophet jacob. Hence, they were in some way believers. This certainly doesnt deny the fact that the palestinians were originally bani israel, i dont mean the israelis today.

And I didnt say it is a promised land for muslims, I said jerusalem will be ours again.(I know I didnt say jerusalem, but you get my point)

I don't know how to explain it clearly because the whole Jewish history is quite complicated. Bani Israel is a jewish tribe because they fellow Jacob (who is both a prophet in Islam and in Judaism), because he is a descendant from Abraham (who is also the fathers of muslims). So in essence, Jews and Muslims are well "cousins", and my interpertation of both the Quranic texts and the Bible texts is that the land is promised to the descendants of Abraham, essentially the Judeo-Christians and Muslims

Btw, I really dont want you to take as I'm trying to offend you in anyway, nor trying to be against you. I'm just participating in the debate.

Please, lets look at it as a peaceful debate. Lol, because I'm just having this impression that we're developing this 'pre-hatred' feeling and I certainly dont want that. :P

It's alright but sometimes you make some you know insulting remarks so it kind of infuriates me a bit :P

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I don't know how to explain it clearly because the whole Jewish history is quite complicated. Bani Israel is a jewish tribe because they fellow Jacob (who is both a prophet in Islam and in Judaism), because he is a descendant from Abraham (who is also the fathers of muslims). So in essence, Jews and Muslims are well "cousins", and my interpertation of both the Quranic texts and the Bible texts is that the land is promised to the descendants of Abraham, essentially the Judeo-Christians and Muslims

I had the same impression actually, but then the other parts of the quran where it specifically mentions jews shows that its not really them who they mean. I mean bani israel were actually muslims, and what happened to them those times, was similar to what going on now.

I personally see that jews and bani israel(the ones mentioned in the quran) are totally different.

It's alright but sometimes you make some you know insulting remarks so it kind of infuriates me a bit :P

Yeah, I know. Sorry though. I just get too furious sometimes and i become...not me. But I'm calming down now. :P:P

and i hope i remain like this. lol

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Fine. That's all I wanted to know. Never said that, go ahead and be knowledgeable as long as people know that this is not Islam allowing it.

I wouldnt be talking just out of nowhere. I KNOW people, close ones that really want the whole of palestine back. Besides, all the documentaries show that most palestinians are still holding on to the last hint of hope. These people are mostly elderies, that witnessed what happened to the palestinians.

You might not be feeling the same way because you grew up knowing that palestine is only the west bank and the ghaza strip.

To everyone out there who's basing this horrendous situation in Gaza on a "two-state" solution:

this is NOT about two countries trying to find peace; this is about the millions of innocent children, women, men, seniors who were sloughtered mercilessly over 50 years.

I'm sorry to say my friends, this is not a politics issue.

This is a human rights issue.

Would you talk about palestinians this way? Arent there palestinians out there that were simply kicked out? Do you want them to stay wherever they are in the world now forever?

I do believe in the Torah just like I do in the Quran(at least thats what I'm simply told in the Quran, probably not the same version though). If you say its promised for jews to take this land, fine. But still thats not an excuse to kill millions of those people who were living in there before England decides to give the jews around there palestine.

I do believe in co-existence, but the way Israel is trying to approach it.

I said this like 3 times now, when I say israel I mean the gov. I clearly said that I dont blame you for saying some of those thigns since you were born there. I'm simply blaming and talking about the government.

Oh, and Im talking to you respectively, so please talk to me the same way.

I dont know any israelis but again, Im not blaming them. I never said they should be thrown, NEVER. I'm just simply asking: What about all those palestinians that Israel threw out?

As I said in the previous post, its not really about politics anymore, its more of an ethical issue.

Firstly, I wasn't born here. The signature at the bottom of all my posts says I'm Finnish and living in Jerusalem.

Political situations change over time. Leen did grow up knowing that Palestine is the West Bank and Gaza. And? More than 50% of the current Palestinian population is under the age of 25. They grew up knowing the same thing. They grew up knowing that two states exist. What Palestinians wanted 60 years ago is no longer the same as it is today. The people that were born 60 years ago are not the ones that will be alive to see a solution. They

And saying "Well, the Palestinians I know want all of historic Palestine back" isn't a valid argument. Palestinians living abroad get most of their political views from their parents, who were born in a different generation and who have not been back home in a long time. What those teenagers think, or their parents, is not the same as what Palestinians living in Palestine think. The Palestinian youth living here and in the West Bank have been educated in Palestinian schools, and many of them see the future as two-state.

There are millions of Palestinians living abroad in Canada, the UK and elsewhere that just don't want to come back. They have built up their lives abroad and don't want to come live here. Don't make it sound as if all the Palestinians in the world are desperate to return. Not all Jews in the world are desperate to come live in Israel. Many people are perfectly happy where they are right now.

A quote from what you said: "This is what I think and believe, but its not impossible to get palestine back, the same way israelis were gathered from all over the world, they could be put them back where they came from. This might sound rude and cruel, but hey, thats exactly what happened to palestinians, well most of them, they're scattered all over the world now. Its like israelis or zionist suddenyl decided that they're better than those palestinians and they should be in their places."

And now contradicting that:"I never said they should be thrown, NEVER."

How does "putting the Israelis back where they came from" not equal throwing them out?

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A quote from what you said: "This is what I think and believe, but its not impossible to get palestine back, the same way israelis were gathered from all over the world, they could be put them back where they came from. This might sound rude and cruel, but hey, thats exactly what happened to palestinians, well most of them, they're scattered all over the world now. Its like israelis or zionist suddenyl decided that they're better than those palestinians and they should be in their places."

And now contradicting that:"I never said they should be thrown, NEVER."

How does "putting the Israelis back where they came from" not equal throwing them out?

Might seem. yes, a contradiction, but I actualyl meant to try and show you how the situation would be if you were in their place right now. You didnt seem to like it, true. But they dont want that happening to them as well.

Thats not my point though, my point is that you keep saying things without actually realizing that palestinians were once in the exact same position before. You're totally ignoring that.

And no, alot of palestinians want to go back to palestine.

The whole reason I started in this debate thing is not to talk about the history in such detail, because I have my views and you have yours. I'm not surprised they're completely different.

My main point in this thread is actually what's going on right now.

And Vvi, please please please, Im not asking this question to have a point against you or anything of that sort. I really want to know, you as a person living in Jerusalem, are you happy with what the israeli army is doing in ghaza for the past 17 days?

Again, I dont have any reason for ask this except that I want to know, honestly, what you're views are on whats going on right now. Not only looking at it politically, but globally.

Please answer me honestly.

Edited by mahuta
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I've just read this: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7822049.stm

and I think **** has just hit the fan! the idiot called this a holocaust? WAY TO PISS JEWS OFF! he can sit in his comfy home in Syria talk bull**** about an offensive while innocent people are dying for HIS cause and not THEIR CAUSE in Gaza! and then on top of it all he goes and says the only solution to this is a ceasefire from Israel! how about you tell your ****heads to ceasefire!

grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

what I want to understand is why the hell are the Israeli's firing at the UN aid lorries?! surely they must say UNWRA in nice blue letters on them! but of course even though the UN reported this, the military denies it! I think I'll take the UN word for it. I think the UN needs to start using water instead of Land to get to the Gazans! if the Israeli's really are just targetting "Hamas the terrorists" surely giving the innocent people stuck in the middle some food and medicine should be in their agenda somewhere! I think an evacuation of Gaza for all civilians should be arranged by the UN rather than these stupid calls for a ceasefire!

235 children dead?! do people not feel the weight of these words?! it looks like a number on the screen, but these are little innocent souls, who didn't have the chance, or choice! or anything! they were just born in the wrong place in the wrong year! all because a bunch of retards decided bombing each other 2 days after Christmas is a good idea! well done ****tards

no comment. Only that I agree.

I talked so much about this issue its becoming painful, and I know im going to repeat the same thigns over and over.

About the children, thats approximatly 18 children everyday, which is like.."ouch".

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